View source for When they think of the savior, they're talking about the guru, the spiritual master. He's asking, is Krsna our guru?

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[[Category:Questions asked to Srila Prabhupada]]
[[Category:Questions asked to SP... 1974]]
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<div id="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="section" sec_index="5" parent="compilation" text="Conversations and Morning Walks"><h2>Conversations and Morning Walks</h2>
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<div id="1974_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="sub_section" sec_index="7" parent="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" text="1974 Conversations and Morning Walks"><h3>1974 Conversations and Morning Walks</h3>
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<div id="RoomConversationJune51974Geneva_0" class="quote" parent="1974_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" book="Con" index="99" link="Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva" link_text="Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva">
<div class="heading">Guru means the representative of God. Just like Christ is son of God, guru is also son of God. So there is no much difference because they will say the same thing, that "You are suffering in this material world on account of material entanglement.
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva|Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva]]: </span><div class="text"><p style="display: inline;">Swiss Man (1): (French)</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: He says that for Christians, this feeling of being with God comes from praying to Lord Jesus Christ. He's asking if Kṛṣṇa has that same position for us.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa is God, and Christ is son of God. We don't find any difference between the son and the father.</p>
<p>Swiss Man (1): (French)</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa, he thinks, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Huh?</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa, he says, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Well, Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa is the same thing. It is external. Kṛṣṇa... Somebody says Kṛṣṇa is avatāra of Viṣṇu, and we say that Viṣṇu is expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Now, this example I have already given. Just like one candle. The another, ignite another candle, ignite another candle... Now, all these candles, so far light-giving power the same. But you can call, "This is first candle. This is second candle." And if you say the second candle is first candle, so there is no trouble because the candle power is the same.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: (translates)</p>
<p>Frenchman: (French)</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: He says, do we see Kṛṣṇa as being a savior in the way that Christians see Christ as being the savior?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: What do you mean by "savior"?</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: (translates)</p>
<p>Frenchman: (French)</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: He say the savior is one who rekindles the spiritual spark that reunites the living being with God. So the savior is in between God and the living being.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Savior means who saves you from this material existence. He is called savior. Because the living entity, being entangled in this material existence, he is suffering, so savior means one who saves from this material entanglement and gets him back to God, back to Godhead.</p>
<p>Swiss Man (1): (French)</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: When they think of the savior, they're talking about the guru, the spiritual master. He's asking, is Kṛṣṇa our guru? Kṛṣṇa, we consider Kṛṣṇa...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Guru means the representative of God. Just like Christ is son of God, guru is also son of God. So there is no much difference because they will say the same thing, that "You are suffering in this material world on account of material entanglement. So you give up this business. Come back to home, back to Godhead." So this is the real message. This message is given by God, by His son, by His servant. The message is the same. If one does not give this message he is neither guru, nor son, nothing of the sort.</p>
<p>Swiss Man (1): (French)</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: What interests them is the underlying nature of our spiritual practice as opposed to theirs. For example, for them spiritual life is the prayer, salvation in Lord Jesus Christ. And they're not quite sure... They're interested in knowing what is our relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Is it the same or...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: We are also thinking of Kṛṣṇa always. Eh? Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ ([[Vanisource:BG 9.14|BG 9.14]]). We are chanting, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa..." We are always remembering Kṛṣṇa. So the real process is... Either you think of Kṛṣṇa or son of Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter, but you should always think of Him. That is the requisition. That is recommended. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, Ninth Chapter.</p>
<p>Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Yes.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ ([[Vanisource:BG 18.68|BG 18.68]]).</p>
<p>Nitāi: ([[Vanisource:BG 9.34|BG 9.34]]):</p>
:man-manā bhava mad-bhakto
:mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
:mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam
:ātmānaṁ mat-parāyaṇaḥ
<p>Prabhupāda: Translation.</p>
<p>Nitāi: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That's all. Now either you engage your mind in Kṛṣṇa or Jesus does not matter. It is same thing. But this is the process. "Engage your mind in Me." Then?</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: (translates)</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: So we are teaching this, that engage your mind to God or the son of god; it doesn't matter. But your mind should be godly engaged. That's all. That is meditation. That is real meditation: "Always think of Me." And in another place, in Sixth Chapter, you see,</p>
:yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
:mad-gatenāntarātmanā
:śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
:sa me yuktatamo mataḥ
:([[Vanisource:BG 6.47|BG 6.47]])
<p>"The first-class yogi is he who is always thinking of Me." So it doesn't matter you are Christian, I am Hindu. The real point is that think of God or God's representative always. That is the point.</p>
<p>Swiss Man (1): (French)</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: (translates) And in that situation, always thinking of God like that, our philosophy is that naturally these others things, charity, humanitarian works, they will all come naturally?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ ([[Vanisource:SB 5.18.12|SB 5.18.12]]). As soon as you become a unalloyed devotee of God, all the good qualities will manifest in you. If the good qualities does not manifest in you, that means you are not yet perfect in God consciousness. Just like you European boys, American boys, why you have given... (break) ...one of the item is that good quality that "Why shall I give trouble, pain, to other animals?" This is within the God consciousness. Just like poor-feeding. This program we also follow. In our temple, especially in India, any man can come and take his food. Yes. We have got arrangement. In the U.S.A also, Los Angeles, New York, we invite anyone, "Come and take food." We don't want to see that anyone is hungry. We don't want to see. So God consciousness means all the good ideas we are manufacturing, they will be manifested in God consciousness automatically. Therefore our duty should be, if we want to make all human being well-behaved, then we must try to make every one of them God conscious.</p>
<p>Swiss Man (1): (French)</p>
<p>Guru-gaurāṅga: (translating) "I wanted to hear you say certain things, and you said them."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Hm?</p>
<p>Guru-gaurāṅga: "And you said them."</p>
<p>M. Roche-dieu: I am very glad to have, to heard you saying these.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Thank you. Bring prasāda.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: (French conversation)</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Show him the pictures.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: (French conversation)</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: We have got 102 centers, and each center you'll find hundred, two hundred, 250 devotees like that. You see the picture. No, no. First picture. All these young boys and girls, how they are happy, you can see from the picture. They have got husband, they have got wife, they have got children.</p>
<p>Young man: Are you from Los Angeles?</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: No, I'm from New York.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: This picture is of Los Angeles, our Los Angeles temple. That is Los Angeles Deity, and this is Paris Deity here.</p>
<p>Swiss Man (1): (French conversation, prasādam is served)</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: Right there. The young man behind you. (French)</p>
<p>Young man: How well the devotees know the scriptures, in fact, because when you go to...</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: He says one thing, one thing is very impressive, to see how well your disciples know the scriptures.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes, they have been educated in that way. For education we have so many books. If from child up to the age of eighty years, if one is educated, we have got sufficient stock to give him education.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: (translates)</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: We have got our educational institution in Dallas, Gurukula. From small children we are educating to become highest devotee.</p>
<p>Swiss Man (1): (French)</p>
<p>Guru-gaurāṅga: (French) This gentleman says we had difficulties with the police in the beginning. And I said, "Yes, but then I went, and I gave him all your books, and he read them, and then there were no more difficulties."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes, on account of our books we are being appreciated everywhere. In the beginning they might have thought that "Some of the hippies," like that.</p>
<p>Swiss Man (1): Have you been in connection with Aurobindo?</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: Have we been in contact with Aurobindo, Śrī Aurobindo?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Why? Why I shall be in contact, Aurobindo?</p>
<p>Swiss Man (1): Because he's... We know in (indistinct).</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: He does not know better than Kṛṣṇa. So one association is sufficient. There is no need of going this Aurobindo, Saurobindo. We never... Why should we waste our time? We have got sufficient education in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. First of all let us finish these hundred books of four hundred pages. Then we shall see what Aurobindo writes. We don't think anyone can speak better than Kṛṣṇa. That is admitted.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: (translates)</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Aurobindo was... Aurobindo, Vivekananda, they started talking something in the Western world hundred years ago. But not a single man became Kṛṣṇa devotee.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: (French conversation) They wish to thank you very, very much for your kindness in receiving them.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: And I thank you for your coming. (chuckles)</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: Hare Kṛṣṇa.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Give this flower. Thank you.</p>
<p>Swiss Man (1): And God bless you.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests leave) These Aurobindos or Vivekanandas and Gandhis, they have spoiled Hindu culture. Vedic culture they have spoiled. Hodgepodge writing, hodgepodge speaking, dry speaking, speculation-choked up the progress of Vedic civilization. Now here is some hope. People are now taking it. Now, did I say wrong, that "Why shall I go to Aurobindo?"</p>
<p>Nitāi: You never say wrong. (laughs) All of your answers were right, great.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: I have got better instruction than Aurobindo. Why shall I go to Aurobindo, waste my time? People don't know anything. Nobody has become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa in reading Aurobindo's literature. And here, as soon as they saw our literature, immediately police officer said, "Oh, you are so high." Immediately. Where is the record, the professors and universities eager to purchase Aurobindo's book and Vivekananda's books? There is no record. But here they are eager "All sixty books, please, sir." "All twelve books, please, sir."</p>
<p>Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Why are they so attracted to humanitarianism?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That is false pride. This has been taught. In the Christianity they have taught like that, giving medicine, open hospital. That is Christianity.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: He admitted it himself. He said himself, "It's a false pride to think..."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That's all.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: "...think we can do something."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything. But they show. They make a collection, that "We are doing such nice work." The Vivekananda also imitated like that and could not do anything. It is not possible. Swami Nikhilananda said... He belongs to the Vivekananda group. Because they raise funds from America, huge funds, that "We shall feeding the poor in India." And they eat meat and big, big become fat, these rascals. So the Americans asked them that "You are taking away our money somewhere to feed the poor. But when we go to India, two sides we see all poor men are lying on the street. What you have done?" So this is a slogan. They cannot do anything. Thinking of poor... Now, those who have accepted voluntarily povertyism, the hippies, what you are doing for them? Why don't you make arrangement for their gentlemanly living? They are not poverty-stricken. Why they are living like wretches, lying on the street, no program for eating, no for sleeping, no for bodily comfort, just like animals? What you have done for them?</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: Because the real problem is not poverty. That they haven't understood.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: This is karma. If you have bad karma, then you must suffer by the laws of nature. You may be a rich man's son or king's son.</p>
<p>Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Christ, he actually also said that. There's one verse in the Bible. Christ said, "The poor you will always have with you, but I will not be with you always." He said that also. They misunderstand.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Very good idea. Therefore I said Jesus Christ is son of God, so what he says and what Kṛṣṇa says, there is no difference. This has become a hackneyed slogan, "poor feeding." To do to the humanity—and cut the throat of the animal. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy? They have no conception of God. If he has got conception of God, then everyone—paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ ([[Vanisource:BG 5.18|BG 5.18]]). Oh, why for the benefit of the human being, other animals' throat should be cut? Even they have no common sense. National. National means one who is born in that land. That is national. So why the animals born in that land, they are not national?</p>
<p>Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: You used a very nice example, that the children, they are ignorant but that does not mean you kill them.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes. Is there any meaning, "Oh, these are foolish children creating trouble, so I will kill them"? What is this?</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: There was a story in Time magazine last week. Everyone was in a big flurry about it. An airplane crashed in the Andes mountains, and they were stranded way up in the mountains for eighteen days without any food. So there were maybe fifty people on the plane and only eighteen survivors. So because there was no food they ate the bodies. They ate the dead bodies to survive. Then, eighteen days later they were saved. A plane came and picked them up and brought them back. So people are very, very much excited, "Oh, what is this amazing occurrence, that they ate human flesh?" But every day they are eating...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Cow's flesh. When it was?</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: This was about... Now it is almost a month ago, one month ago.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Where it was?</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: In the Andes mountains?</p>
<p>Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: High in the mountains.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Huh?</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: High in the mountains there was a plane that crashed.</p>
<p>Nitāi: South America.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: Is it South...</p>
<p>Nitāi: Andes, yes.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: I think so. I'm not sure. I don't know for sure. But in the mountains a plane crashed and there were eighteen survivors. And to stay alive they ate the dead bodies of the passengers who died. So there were many articles. "What was it like?" Everyone wants to know, "What was it like to eat human flesh? Do you feel bad now that you have eaten human flesh?" "No."</p>
<p>Guru-gaurāṅga: Who's left a copy of Bhagavad-gītā here?</p>
<p>Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Who's left this copy? That's his, this young boy.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: There have already been books written about it, television reports, radio, everything.</p>
<p>Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: One thing on that report. I read that there were certain people...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: There was no vegetable?</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: No, it was way up in the mountains.</p>
<p>Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Icy, cold.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: It was very cold. There was no plants, no nothing. They had to stay inside the plane just to stay alive, to stay warm. So they could not go and get food anywhere.</p>
<p>Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: And the bodies were already dead. And there were certain people that they knew their bodies, his fiance or his sister. They agreed that if they were going to eat the bodies they would eat them last. It's true. It was in the story. One man, he had his prospective wife. One man had his sister or sister-in-law, cousin. They said, "If we're going to eat the bodies, then we'll eat them the last." So they had a sense that this body is more important than that body, like that.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, in last war they ate stool also.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: Concentration camps.</p>
<p>Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Really? What is the Vaiṣṇava point of view?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: What is that?</p>
<p>Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is a Vaiṣṇava, is he willing to maintain his body for the service of Lord Kṛṣṇa even if he has to break regulative principles—if it is necessary?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: If it is necessary.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: What's the name of that yogi who meditated for sixty thousand years?</p>
<p>Nitāi: Saubhari? Viśvāmitra.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Vālmīki.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: No.</p>
<p>Nitāi: Viśvāmitra?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Viśvāmitra.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: He also had to eat dog, I think.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: There's a story about that.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes, Viśvāmitra. How they exist in that open, and there was snow. For eating they... Eighteen days?</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: The plane crashed. Half the people were killed. So the other people, two of them left to go find help. They went to find out some people they could telephone or something. It took them eighteen days to find a house. So the other people, they all stayed close together inside the airplanes. They put on blankets and their coats. But there was no... They could not go outside. There was no food.</p>
<p>Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: They had... At first they had little chocolate and they rationed it out that "You get a little bit of chocolate," and little bit of liquid they had. And so they rationed it out until that was finished. Then they took a vote amongst themselves. "Well, what shall we do? Shall we eat human flesh or shall we simply starve to death?" So they voted amongst themselves that "Yes, we should do this." There were some men, one or two, that would not do it and they died. They refused to do it, and they died. Others, they did.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: They made some... Afterwards they had to... There was some discussion, some philosophy. They were actually discussing. And there was one person there who was explaining to the others that "We must eat this flesh to stay alive but it's not so wrong since the soul has left the body." He said, "The spirit has left these bodies, so you shouldn't consider it to be quite so bad. We're obliged to do this."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not unreasonable. It was a question of selection. Otherwise, to subsist, to eat the dead bodies, flesh, that is not very abominable. That can be accepted. But it is the selection whether one will eat. That is another thing. Otherwise dead body's flesh is as good as anything else because it is matter.</p>
<p>Yogeśvara: So who is coming?</p>
<p>Guru-gaurāṅga: There is one more meeting today.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Where?</p>
<p>Guru-gaurāṅga: There is the European Center for Nuclear Research.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: What can I do there? (laughter)</p>
<p>Guru-gaurāṅga: This man has worked in India... (break)</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: ...for B.A. examination. So the father failed, and the daughter passed. Yes, because the old man cannot take education. In Bhāgavata also it is recommended, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāga... ([[Vanisource:SB 7.6.1|SB 7.6.1]]). Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be taught from the very beginning of life. The more younger, you capture it. Just like we were educated from the very birth by our father. The same thing, what I am doing now in larger scale, I did in my childhood, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa worship and Ratha-yātrā, the same thing.</p>
<p>Nitāi: Would you like some refreshment, something to drink or eat?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Little fruit and a little this. (end)</p>
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