View source for But couldn't it be the difference between appearance and reality (in future, everyone may fall and everyone may become elevated. But we have to take his present situation, what he is at present)?

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{{terms|"But couldn't it be the difference between appearance and reality"|"In future, everyone may fall and everyone may become elevated. But we have to take his present situation, what he is at present"}}
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[[Category:Questions asked to Srila Prabhupada]]
[[Category:Questions asked to SP... 1975]]
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<div id="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="section" sec_index="5" parent="compilation" text="Conversations and Morning Walks"><h2>Conversations and Morning Walks</h2>
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<div id="1973_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="sub_section" sec_index="6" parent="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" text="1973 Conversations and Morning Walks"><h3>1973 Conversations and Morning Walks</h3>
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<div id="RoomConversationwithFatherTannerandotherguestsJuly111973London_0" class="quote" parent="1973_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" book="Con" index="42" link="Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London" link_text="Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London">
<div class="heading">This is reality. If at the present moment he is free from all sinful activities, that is reality. In future, everyone is susceptible to fall down. If he does not carry the principles strictly that proneness is there. But that is not consideration. What he is at present, that is consideration.
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London|Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London]]: </span><div class="text"><p style="display: inline;">Father Tanner: ...any compulsive behavior?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Because we follow Vedic principles. So Vedas declare that these four kinds of activity, they are sinful. So we accept. Our authority is Veda. Just like lawyer's authority is lawbook.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Would you say there are more sins than those four?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that?</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Are there other sins?</p>
<p>Śrutakīrti: Are there other sins beside these four...?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: These are the basic principle of sinful life. Other sinful activities come out of it. Just like illicit sex life. Illicit relationship of a man and woman, there may be many dangerous things. You see? So the basic principle is the illicit sex life. Now, it can go up to murdering and so many things. So if we avoid the basic principles, the further subsidiary sinful activities automatically stopped.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: But... I haven't remembered the four, but is one of those basic principles concerned with truth?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Which one?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Because...</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Now, it was told... Now I've forgotten the four.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Because Veda, Veda means knowledge. Knowledge means truth. Unless you come to the knowledge of truth, your knowledge is not perfect.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: But do you specifically have a precept against telling a lie, or against hypocrisy?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Well, hypocrisy and other things, they are subsidiary. If one is pure from the very beginning, then there is no chance of becoming hypocrite. Why he should be hypocrite? If he is open, clear, why one should become hypocrite? Hypocrisy, when there is sinful activity, then hypocrisy. If there is no sin, where is the possibility of hypocrisy? A sinful man may pose himself a religious man. That is hypocrisy. But if there is no sin, then where is hypocrisy?</p>
<p>Father Tanner: What I didn't understand is how this is covered by your four pillars, the four...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Which of these would cover lying?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Lying?</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Yes, telling lies.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That I have already explained.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Yes. But which of those four pillars...?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: All of them. All of them. Just like one is indulging in intoxication. He may say that "I am very pure." But how one can become pure, he's addicted to intoxicants? So I heard from one of my disciples that there is a hospital in U.S.A., and five thousand priests are there for curing their intoxication habit. Do you know that?</p>
<p>Father Tanner: I didn't know that number, but I know that there are hospitals and sanatoriums...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: So if the priest is going to hospital for curing his intoxication habit, he's hypocrite.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: He would admit that,...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: ...wouldn't he? I mean, the priest himself.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: How a priest can be intoxicants?</p>
<p>Father Tanner: He would say, wouldn't he, that was just his weakness.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Eh?</p>
<p>Father Tanner: He would say it was his weakness.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Weakness is hypocrisy. If you are weak, you cannot become priest. Because you are teacher, religious teacher. You should not take that post. That is hypocrisy.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: But perhaps this is the difference, or one of the differences between western and eastern civilization...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question of eastern or western...</p>
<p>Father Tanner: But in the East, your wise man is nearly always an elderly man.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Not always.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Not always.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Not always.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: But in the West, you know, your priest is generally made a priest in his early twenties. Then he has thrust upon him the role of the wise man, which he doesn't always seek.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Just like these boys, they are very young, twenties, between twenty to thirty. So they are made here brahmacārī, and some of them are sannyāsī, but they are strictly following these principles. Because they are young men, there cannot be any concession that he can become intoxicants, he can indulge in meat-eating. No.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: But would you think of a young man as wise man? Isn't it normal that a young man is working his way towards wisdom?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: The wise man becomes by knowledge, not by age. Even an old man, if he has no knowledge, what is...? He is not wise man. Wise means one who has attained knowledge. He may be young, he may be old. It doesn't matter. Vidyatvaṁ vayasā vinā. In Sanskrit word, that one becomes elderly without being advanced in age. That means he knows the knowledge. Therefore he is elderly. An elderly person means advanced in knowledge, not by age.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Hm. But, you see, knowledge and attainment aren't the same thing. You know, I may know that it is wrong to be an alcoholic, and maybe I am not actually, physically an alcoholic, but it doesn't mean to say that interiorally I have cleansed myself of all addiction. The fact that you are not drinking for a year doesn't mean to say that you have overcome the intoxicant urge if that is in you, although you know it is wrong.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, this argument is not very strong. Just like one foodstuff, freshly made, it is fresh. But if somebody argues that if it remains four days more, it will become bad, that is surmisation. Now it is fresh. We take it fresh. What will happen in future, that is no consideration. In future, everyone may fall and everyone may become elevated. But we have to take his present situation, what he is at present.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: But couldn't it be the difference between appearance and reality?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: This is reality. If at the present moment he is free from all sinful activities, that is reality. In future, everyone is susceptible to fall down. If he does not carry the principles strictly that proneness is there. But that is not consideration. What he is at present, that is consideration.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: But what he is at present may be an accident.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Why accident? Which is actually happening, why it is accident?</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Well, for instance, if you take a man shipwrecked on an island alone, he is not in any sense taking part in impure love, or illicit love. But it doesn't mean to say that he is free from all desire for illicit love.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No. Nobody's free. But so long he acts nicely, he's nice.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: So it is the action, rather than the, no, the exterior rather than the interior.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, interior... Well, of course, everyone has got interior tendency, but by practicing actually, exteriorally, that interior also is reformed. It is, by external behavior, the interior behavior also becomes fixed up. By practice. Therefore there is regular class so that he may be purified internally and externally. Sa bāhyābhyantara-śuciḥ. Yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣaṁ sa bāhyābhyantara-śuciḥ. If you constantly remember the Supreme Lord, so you become automatically purified, internally and externally. Because the Lord is absolute, so if we chant the Lord's holy name, the name is also Lord. He has no difference between His name and Himself.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Well, you see, we make a difference between the law and the spirit of the law, or the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. And we can say a man can keep the letter of the law without in any way keeping the spirit of the law.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, that is materially difference. But spiritually...</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Spiritually, that is different.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No. Spiritually, the Lord and His name, the Lord and His form, the Lord and His quality, They are all identical.</p>
<p>Devotee: No, but there's a little misunderstanding. Prabhupāda is saying "Lord." Not...</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Oh, you're saying "Lord." I'm sorry. I was saying "law."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, no.</p>
<p>Devotee: Law, law, the command, law.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Yes. You can have the letter of the law...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, I'm not speaking of law. I'm talking of Lord.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Yes.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: So Lord and Lord's name, They're the same, identical. Just like we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So this Kṛṣṇa name and the Kṛṣṇa person, identical. Because the Lord is absolute. In the material world, the world of duality, the name is not the substance. If you require water, simply by chanting "Water, water," your thirst will not be quenched. You require the substance water. But in the spiritual world, the Lord and His name, the same thing. If you chant the Lord's name, Kṛṣṇa, or any name of Lord, that is identical with the Lord. Therefore by chanting the holy name of the Lord, you are associating with the Lord. And as soon as you associate with the Lord, you become purified. Because Lord is all-pure. Just like if you associate with fire, you become warm. Similarly, if you constantly associate with the Lord, you remain purified. Therefore our principle is they are always chanting... Just like we are... I am chanting also. (Holds up beads) Or reading some book. Or talking with you about Kṛṣṇa. So we are always connected with Kṛṣṇa, or God. In all our activities... The whole house, you'll see, they are engaged in some sort of work which has connection with Kṛṣṇa. There is no other work. So nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe. Anything attached with God, that is also godly.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: You say...</p>
<p>Mrs. Wells: I can see what Father Tanner means about the spiritual man on the outside not necessarily being pure on the inside.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, he's not spiritual man. He's a hypocrite. He must be inside and outside correct. If one is outside correct, inside wrong, he's not spiritual man. We don't accept him.</p>
<p>Mrs. Wells: But you begin with the outside.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No. Inside and outside, both.</p>
<p>Mrs. Wells: But your principles pertain to the outside man.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Outside man?</p>
<p>Mrs. Wells: The actions...</p>
<p>Guest (1) (British young man): You said that the four pillars that you follow are outward manifestations. They belong to a material person.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Outward manifestation?</p>
<p>Guest 1: Hm.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: So outward manifestation... Just like outwardly, iron rod, it is iron. Iron. Do you follow me?</p>
<p>Mrs. Wells: Yes, iron.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: But you put the iron in the fire...</p>
<p>Mrs. Wells: Yes.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: So the iron becomes warm, warmer, and then at last, it becomes red-hot. When the iron is red-hot, it is no longer iron. It is fire. If you touch anywhere, it will burn. Although apparently it is iron rod, but because it has become red-hot, it is fire. Similarly, if you constantly keep in spiritual activities, your outward body, although it is iron and matter, it becomes spiritualized. Try to understand this example. Iron rod put into the fire, when it is red-hot, it is no longer iron rod. It is fire. Similarly this body, although material, if you constantly keep in touch with spiritual activities, then it is no longer material. It is spiritual. The body's also spiritual.</p>
<p>Mrs. Wells: And how long do you think this takes to...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: So long you keep in spiritual activities.</p>
<p>Mrs. Wells: For a young man or a young woman, beginning?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Well, I say that there is every chance of falling down. That is up to you to keep fit. Otherwise there is chance of falling down. But even he falls down, whatever he has done, that is permanent.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: But, you see, in your example, if you take your iron...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: ...which is hot...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: ...once it's been immersed into the, you know, fire and is hot, then it must always burn, whatever you touch.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I say...</p>
<p>Father Tanner: It's become... If you take your person, your spiritual man, or the person who's trying to become a spiritual man, and he could have done his best to make his contact with the spirit, he doesn't always after that be spiritual. You know. your iron has to burn. He hasn't got to be spiritual.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, no. As the... If you keep the iron always hot, it is fire. Is it not? Similarly, if you always keep yourself within the spiritual activities, then you are spirit.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: You see, I don't think that the spiritual activities which are external forms can really...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: ...of themselves change the internal man.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes, it changes.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Now, I...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Actually, You can see here.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: You can have a person who goes to church every Sunday, who says his prayers...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, our program is not like that, we go after seven days. We are twenty-four hours engaged.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: Yes, yes. But all I'm saying is you can have this, and they are not spiritual.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, why not spiritual?</p>
<p>Father Tanner: And, you know, I don't know your disciples...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That you have to learn. That you have to learn. Yes.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: I don't know your disciples, but it is possible that some of them, even with twenty-four hour a day, you know, exercises...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes, our program is like that.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: ...fail to become spiritual.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Now, our program here is like that. We have got Deities, six times ārati. In preparation for that, cleansing the temple room, washing the dishes of the Deity, cooking for the Deity, arranging for the other things... So they are always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like we have got so many books. So they are reading books of Kṛṣṇa. This is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So... Or they are going to saṅkīrtana party. That is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it is a question of practice and practical understanding. A theoretically one cannot understand. But we have got twenty-four hours engagement for these boys. Not a single moment lost. In this way we train them.</p>
<p>Father Tanner: You see, I really don't know... I don't deny that, but I don't see the difference externally between that and brainwashing.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That, that, that, that... Suppose you are washing the floor of the temple. It is not external. Because there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He's washing the floor or washing the dishes for Kṛṣṇa. So the consciousness is there. So actually, our life is consciousness. If your full consciousness is only for God, then you remain always godly. There is no doubt about it. If you make division, "so much for worldly and so much for godly," then there is difference. But if you dovetail everything towards the service of the Lord, then anything you do, that is godly.</p>
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