View source for Is thinking a necessary function of the soul? He says, well for instance an oyster. How does he know whether or not an oyster thinks?

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[[Category:Questions asked to Srila Prabhupada]]
[[Category:Questions asked to SP... 1971]]
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<div id="Lectures" class="section" sec_index="4" parent="compilation" text="Lectures"><h2>Lectures</h2>
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<div id="Philosophy_Discussions" class="sub_section" sec_index="13" parent="Lectures" text="Philosophy Discussions"><h3>Philosophy Discussions</h3>
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<div id="PhilosophyDiscussiononReneDescartes_0" class="quote" parent="Philosophy_Discussions" book="Lec" index="34" link="Philosophy Discussion on Rene Descartes" link_text="Philosophy Discussion on Rene Descartes">
<div class="heading">God is there giving him. God is, gives us instruction that we will advance, human being. We refuse, but they do not refuse.
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:Philosophy Discussion on Rene Descartes|Philosophy Discussion on Rene Descartes]]: </span><div class="text"><p style="display: inline;">Hayagrīva: In a sense he says that when one knows God he knows everything else, because...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes. If he knows God and follows the instruction of God then he is right, and as soon as he goes against the instruction of God, then he is wrong. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: "Now I have given you all instruction. It is up to you to accept or reject." Yathecchasi tathā kuru ([[Vanisource:BG 18.63|BG 18.63]]). That is free will. So now it depends on me whether I shall act according to the instruction of God or I shall act according to my whims, according to my sensual inclinations.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: He says, "I see that the certainty in truth of all knowledge depends on knowledge of the true God, and that before I knew Him I could have no perfect knowledge of any other thing, and now that I know Him I have a means of acquiring a perfect knowledge of innumerable things, not only in respect of God Himself and other intelligible things, but also in respect of that corporeal nature which is the object of pure mathematics." Now he says he knows God but at the same time he seems to be deceived in matters, certain matters that we haven't come to yet, but, uh...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No. If he has actually followed God's instruction and if he has actually knowledge of what is God, then he will never be misled. Either he selects a false God or he has not met God, real God. Then he is... But to save this danger there is God's instruction, Bhagavad-gītā. Anyone who will follow, he will be perfect.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: Concerning the soul, Descartes concludes that...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Now in this connection, regarding the soul, if he has received the knowledge of soul from God, therefore at that time there is no chance of he is thinking. If, as soon as he thinks in his own way, then there may be mistakes, because he is imperfect, finite. But when Kṛṣṇa says directly that "Within this body the soul is there," so if we accept God's instruction, then immediately we understand that the soul is different from this body. Exactly just like if somebody inquires, "Where is  Prabhupāda?" If somebody says that "He is in this room," it does not mean this room is Prabhupāda; Prabhupāda is within this room. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says that this, the owner of the body, the soul, is within this body. So immediately the false impression that "I am this body," the fool's conclusion, immediately it is eradicated. The light is there, but he will not accept. He wants to continue to live as a fool and speculate and waste time and con..., give conclusion in so many ways, so many rascal jugglery, "The living force is like this, like that, like that." But Kṛṣṇa gives instruction immediately that the living force, soul, is within this body; he is not this body. And He gives complete instruction on this at... He says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: ([[Vanisource:BG 2.20|BG 2.20]]) "This soul is never killed even the body is killed." This is knowledge. In spite of this knowledge, if somebody sticks to his foolish theories, then he remains animal.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: There was a lot of conjecture at this time on where the soul is located, and he writes, "It is likewise necessary to know that although the soul is joined to the whole body, there is yet in there a certain part in which it exercises its functions more particularly than in all the others, and that it is usually believed that this part is the brain or possibly the heart."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: The heart.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: "The brain because it is within..., because it is with that the organ of sense are connected, and the heart because it is apparently in it that we experience the passions." We... He thought that the soul was in the pineal gland at the base of the brain, because we think with the brain, but that he wasn't certain. He thought, "Well, our passions are in the heart, so maybe it's in the heart."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: "Maybe it's in the brain."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to accept God's instruction. He definitely gives the information, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati ([[Vanisource:BG 18.61|BG 18.61]]). Īśvaraḥ means the controller. So the soul is the controller of this body. So He is within the heart; it is already there. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati ([[Vanisource:BG 18.61|BG 18.61]]). There are two kinds of īśvaraḥ, controller. One is the ordinary controller, that means the individual living being, and the other is the supreme living being. We get from Vedic information both of them sitting together on this body tree. So both cases, the Supersoul and the individual soul, they are living within the heart. That is the right conclusion.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: But at the same time the soul pervades the entire body.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. That portion which is spread all over the body, that is immortal. So this is the illumination or the shining of the soul. That the sun is situated localized in a particular place, that we can see everyday, but his illumination is distributed all over the universe. Similarly, although the soul is situated within the heart, his illumination is spread all over the body. So that is consciousness. So as soon as the soul is out from the heart, which is known as heart failure, when he leaves the heart, then what is the use of this heart? It becomes a lump of matter. Immediately consciousness is absent from the whole body. So it is upon the leaving of the soul this body there is no more consciousness. This is reasoning. Why a second before there was consciousness and after there is no consciousness? If you chopped up the body there will be no protest, there will  be no feeling of pain, that "What is that?" This is reasoning, that something is missing. That soul has gone out; therefore the consciousness in the body is absent. That soul is immortal; the consciousness is also immortal. Now the consciousness, by the influence of illusory energy, is engaged in so many material things—consciousness of society, consciousness of nationality, consciousness of this, that, so many. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is educating movement, how the consciousness can be purified to remain only Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then his life is successful.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: All right...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: What?</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: Here we go. In a letter, Descartes wrote, "I know that brutes," that is animals, "do many things better than we do, and I am not surprised at this, for that also goes to prove that they act by course of nature. If they could think as we do..."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No. Not force of nature. By force of God.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: Yes.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: In the heart of the brute also there is God.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: "If they could think as we do, they would have an immortal soul as well as we, which is not likely because there is no reason for believing it of some animals without believing it of all, and there are many of them too imperfect to make it possible to believe it of them, such as oysters, sponges, etc." Is thinking a necessary function of the soul? He says, well for instance an oyster. How does he know whether or not an oyster thinks?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: God is there giving him. God is, gives us instruction that we will advance, human being. We refuse, but they do not refuse.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: You've said that anything that grows has a soul. The grass has a soul, has soul.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes. In dormant state.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: Dormant.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes. Just as child has soul, but it is not yet..., the body has not yet developed. According to the body, according to the circumstances, the soul acts.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: But he equates the mind and the higher mental processes with the soul.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: And, uh...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Mind is an instrument through which the soul acts. Mind is rejecting and accepting by the dictation of the soul.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: He looked on animals as machines that react, and the basis for this view is..., he called it radiosenation, or language, because they do not have language...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: They have got language.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: They react as machines.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: They have got language. You do not understand it.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: It's been proved scientifically...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes.</p>
<p>Hayagrīva: ...that they actually... Dolphins, we, we have been able to even speak to dolphins, to communicate verbally. That also...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa was speaking with everyone. With the birds He was speaking. One old gopī went to the Yamunā to take bath, and when she saw that Kṛṣṇa was speaking with the bird, then she, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa can speak with the birds." She became surprised. So because Kṛṣṇa is God, He can understand  everyone's language. That is God.</p>
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