View source for As a sudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked

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[[Category:Laborer Class - Sudra]]
[[Category:He Can (Disciples of SP)]]
[[Category:Perfection]]
[[Category:Why Should]]
[[Category:He Should (Disciples of SP)]]
[[Category:Artificially]]
[[Category:Become a Brahmana]]
[[Category:Sannyasi (Disciples of SP)]]
[[Category:Our Falldowns (Disciples of SP)]]
[[Category:Has]]
[[Category:Check]]
[[Category:Questions Posed by Srila Prabhupada]]
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<div id="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="section" sec_index="5" parent="compilation" text="Conversations and Morning Walks"><h2>Conversations and Morning Walks</h2>
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<div id="1977_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="sub_section" sec_index="10" parent="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" text="1977 Conversations and Morning Walks"><h3>1977 Conversations and Morning Walks</h3>
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<div id="RoomConversationVarnasramaSystemMustBeIntroducedFebruary141977Mayapura_0" class="quote" parent="1977_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" book="Con" index="84" link="Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura" link_text="Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura">
<div class="heading">Yes. He is śūdra, clerk. He can... As a śūdra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brāhmaṇa and sannyāsī and fall down? This has to be checked.
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura|Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura]]: </span><div class="text"><p style="display: inline;">Hari-śauri: Varṇāśrama system is beneficial.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī means he must be a brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. The spiritual life, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, means he must be a qualified brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brāhmaṇa, that is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.</p>
:arcāyām eva haraye
:pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate
:na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu
:sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ
<p>The brāhmaṇa means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brāhmaṇa there is no question of Vaiṣṇava.</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: No question of?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇavism.</p>
:śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
:puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ
:hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi
:vidhunoti suhṛt satām
:([[Vanisource:SB 1.2.17|SB 1.2.17]])
<p>By becoming a brāhmaṇa, hearing, hearing, hearing... Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. The other qualities, śūdra quality, kṣatriya, vaiśya, means finished. So then next stage is, śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ... Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. By this process, hearing... Without becoming a brāhmaṇa nobody is interested to hear. Then, by hearing, naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu, then abhadra, means the base qualities, means ignorance and passion... These are the base qualities. So naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, by hearing from Bhāgavata or by serving the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement-</p>
:naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu
:nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā
:bhagavaty uttama-śloke
:bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī
:([[Vanisource:SB 1.2.18|SB 1.2.18]])
<p>Then he becomes fixed up in devotional... This devotional service is the first-grade quality of sattva-guṇa.</p>
:naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu
:nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā
:bhagavaty uttama-śloke
:bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī
:([[Vanisource:SB 1.2.18|SB 1.2.18]])
<p>Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ ([[Vanisource:SB 1.2.19|SB 1.2.19]]). When one is situated as a devotee, then this base quality, rajas-tamaḥ, ignorance and passion, the symptoms: kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye. Kāma, lusty desires, and greediness. Sex desire, strong sex desire or satisfy the senses, eating too much, lobha, greediness—these things go. Nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā bhagavaty uttama... When one is situated in devotional service, tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. These are rajas-tamo... These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye, ceta etair anāviddham ([[Vanisource:SB 1.2.19|SB 1.2.19]]). The mind is no more disturbed with all these things. Sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. Then he is to be understood... He's in the sattva-guṇa. That is perfect brahminical life. Then he'll be pleased. Prasīdati. In this way, gradual step... So it is very difficult to bring, introduce varṇāśrama, but at least there must be some idea. Just like in the university, nobody is going to study higher mathematics, higher English literature. Nobody goes even in your country. The classes are almost vacant. But still, the government does not close it. The expenditure is high, but there is no student, no income. Therefore the professors coming to us, "Give us some student." You know that?</p>
<p>Satsvarūpa: Religion professors.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, higher studies...</p>
<p>Satsvarūpa: Yes. "Send us some of your men."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That's all. This is only interest.</p>
<p>Satsvarūpa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brāhmaṇa after a year. It's not very hard. Everyone becomes a brāhmaṇa.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: Where will we introduce the varṇāśrama system, then?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: In our society, amongst our members.</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varṇāśrama, not everybody brāhmaṇa.</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes.</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Not necessary. You remain as a kṣatriya. You'll be ha...</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: No need for even any brāhmaṇa initiation, then...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, no.</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: ...unless one is...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, brāhmaṇa must be there. Why do you say, generalize?</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: Unless one is particularly...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes.</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: ...inclined.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Not that a śūdra man is by force become a brāhmaṇa. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a śūdra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya sam... ([[Vanisource:BG 18.46|BG 18.46]]). He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a śūdra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a śūdra can get perfection provided he does the work of a śūdra perfectly.</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: For Kṛṣṇa.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Therefore why a śūdra artificially should be a brāhmaṇa? Let them, let him remain a śūdra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of śūdra, he'll also be as good as a brāhmaṇa. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.</p>
<p>Satsvarūpa: Today you've been saying that the Vaiṣṇava is the highest, above the brāhmaṇa. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaiṣṇava.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes. Vaiṣṇava everyone, even if he's not brāhmaṇa. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that."</p>
<p>Satsvarūpa: If in our society we say, "Śrīla Prabhupāda wants some to be śūdra..."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaiṣṇava. But because he's a śūdra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brāhmaṇa, or Vaiṣṇava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a śūdra, he's a Vaiṣṇava.</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Kṛṣṇa says. Bring that Bhagavad-gītā. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ?</p>
<p>Hari-śauri:</p>
:sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ
:saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ
:sva-karma-nirataḥ siddhiṁ
:yathā vindati tac chṛṇu
<p>"By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes. He is śūdra, clerk. He can... As a śūdra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brāhmaṇa and sannyāsī and fall down? This has to be checked.</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He's also not following them. (laughs)</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: Following them. So how will we implement? Right now we have... Every temple president can...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That is supposed. Where there is no tree, a castor seed tree is very big tree. That is going on.</p>
<p>Satsvarūpa: If there's no tree?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: You know castor seed tree, a plant? it does not grow.</p>
<p>Satsvarūpa: Small.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Small. So there is no banyan tree. It is taken—"Oh, it is very big."</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: I don't follow the analogy.</p>
<p>Satsvarūpa: In the complete absence of trees, then a small tree is considered big.</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: Oh. (laughs) Well, say, like here in Māyāpur now we have a situation...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, no. Why? Why one should stress to become big tree? Here it is clearly said even if you are small tree, you can get perfection. So we should take that.</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: So in Māyāpur here now we have that situation, that so many...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Everywhere, wherever, Māyāpur or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. Brāhmaṇa has his duty, kṣatriya has his duty, vaiśya has his duty, śūdra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brāhmaṇa? Let them do, according to śāstra, the work of śūdra, or vaiśya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brāhmaṇa or he should be made a sannyāsī and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate ([[Vanisource:CC Madhya 8.58|CC Madhya 8.58]]). Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and four āśramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmaṇi. You work as a perfect brāhmaṇa or a perfect kṣatriya, perfect śūdra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.</p>
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