View source for Because a devotee, like Lord Jesus Christ, means confidential servant of God, there is no difference between God and himself

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[[Category:Because]]
[[Category:Devotee Means...]]
[[Category:Like A]]
[[Category:Jesus]]
[[Category:Confidential]]
[[Category:Servant of God]]
[[Category:There Is No Difference]]
[[Category:No Difference Between]]
[[Category:God]]
[[Category:Himself]]
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<div id="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="section" sec_index="5" parent="compilation" text="Conversations and Morning Walks"><h2>Conversations and Morning Walks</h2>
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<div id="1973_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="sub_section" sec_index="6" parent="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" text="1973 Conversations and Morning Walks"><h3>1973 Conversations and Morning Walks</h3>
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<div id="RoomConversationWithDavidLawrenceJuly121973London_0" class="quote" parent="1973_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" book="Con" index="44" link="Room Conversation With David Lawrence -- July 12, 1973, London" link_text="Room Conversation With David Lawrence -- July 12, 1973, London">
<div class="heading">No, how he could claim? He's a devotee of God, he's servant of God. How he can claim? Of course, there is no difference between God and His servant. Yes. That we say. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata... **. Because a devotee, like Lord Jesus Christ, means confidential servant of God, there is no difference between God and himself. Just like any political representative or business representative, he's, if he's a confidential representative, there is no difference between the king or the proprietor of the firm, so long he represents rightly. Similarly, anyone who represents God or the cause of God, he's not different from God.
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:Room Conversation With David Lawrence -- July 12, 1973, London|Room Conversation With David Lawrence -- July 12, 1973, London]]: </span><div class="text"><p style="display: inline;">Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa's instruction is there. It is open to everyone. It is not only open to us. Everyone. Bhagavad-gītā. It is widely-read literature in the world. But unfortunately, they have been misinterpreted.</p>
<p>David Lawrence: It was very interesting to read one of the very western versions, that of Professor Zeiner of Oxford. And on one or two points of contention between yourself and other translators of the Bhagavad-gītā, in fact, he, nearly always, went with you. Now, he's reckoned to be one of the foremost western Sanskrit scholars. And he every time emphasized the devotional tone of your translation. Nearly every time. I was very impressed by that.</p>
<p>Śyāmasundara: We talked with Professor Zeiner (Zayner?), and he may come. He's trying... He's going to see...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That is only interpretation. Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna. Kṛṣṇa is speaking to Arjuna. He is plainly speaking that "I am speaking to you this Bhagavad-gītā because You are My devotee." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam ([[Vanisource:BG 4.3|BG 4.3]]). So first condition to understand Bhagavad-gītā is to become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So in the Bhagavad-gītā, the only talk is about devotion. There is no other talk. There are other talks, but they are subordinate. They are not principal talks. The principal talk is to understand Kṛṣṇa through bhakti-yoga. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ ([[Vanisource:BG 18.55|BG 18.55]]). You understand Sanskrit? You...?</p>
<p>David Lawrence: Yes, yes, I'm there.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: So if He says, "One can understand Me only through bhakti,"... He has spoken about jñāna, karma, yoga, everything, but if anyone wants to know Kṛṣṇa, then He says, it is His direct order, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ ([[Vanisource:BG 18.55|BG 18.55]]). Tattvataḥ, "In truth, what I am, if anyone wants to know, that can be known through bhakti-yoga. No other method."</p>
<p>David Lawrence: I was very interested this last week to be reading a book which really was trying to defend orthodox Christianity, and it was by a very devotional Christian writer, and he, in fact, was making exactly the same points as yourself about the God consciousness of Jesus. I read the Ratha-yātrā magazine, and saw how, I think it was a nun that asked you about the position of Jesus on this, and you quite rightly said, "Well, of course, Jesus never claimed to be God." I do wish that some Christians would realize that. He was God conscious, wasn't he?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes.</p>
<p>David Lawrence: The churches in this land seem to have forgotten that. He never claimed to be God.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, how he could claim? He's a devotee of God, he's servant of God. How he can claim? Of course, there is no difference between God and His servant. Yes. That we say. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata... **. Because a devotee, like Lord Jesus Christ, means confidential servant of God, there is no difference between God and himself. Just like any political representative or business representative, he's, if he's a confidential representative, there is no difference between the king or the proprietor of the firm, so long he represents rightly. Similarly, anyone who represents God or the cause of God, he's not different from God. We should offer respect to such person exactly like God. That is our instruction of the ācāryas. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktaḥ **. In every śāstra the spiritual master is recognized as personally the Supreme Lord. But in... Why he is recognized? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. Because he's the most dear servant of the Lord. And that is natural. Suppose some representative of some firm comes, and if I know that he is the most confidential representative, I must respect him very nicely so that he may be impressed and he may report, "These people are very nice." (laughter) Oh. So this is the ordinary etiquette, what to speak of the actual representative of God. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktaḥ **. Uktaḥ means "it is already said." Tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ. Those who are advanced in devotional service, they accept this principle. But why? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. Because he is the most confidential servant, representative. Vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam. This is, we pray, offer our prayers to our spiritual master. So it is very nice. You are attempting. I am very glad. So you can inquire from me anything. The first thing I shall request you, the first principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or the first ABCD of spiritual education, is to understand the constitutional position of the living entity. He is, he is spirit soul. He's not this body. The spirit soul is living within this body, but the, the body's not the spirit soul. This thing must be understood very clearly. You know, in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, dehino 'smin yathā dehe ([[Vanisource:BG 2.13|BG 2.13]]). Dehinaḥ, the proprietor of the body, is within this body. Dehinaḥ asmin dehe yathā. And the body is changing, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, like that. So when this body will be useless, we will take another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. This first education of spiritual life should be understood first. Then one can make progress. Then one can understand what is the constitution of God, what is our relationship with Him. But if, so long we shall remain under the bodily concept of life, this subject matter will remain difficult.</p>
<p>David Lawrence: Hm. There's one matter that I'd love to ask you about which is I found personally difficulty because perhaps I haven't had the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is as long as I should have done, is to really feel that I've got to grips with the idea of the spiritual sky. I couldn't quite understand there was any form, any form at all of symbolism coming into the idea of the various stages of planets and so on, or whether, in fact, this was a very physical...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Bring Bhagavad-gītā.</p>
<p>Śyāmasundara: Here.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Find out this verse: paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo... ([[Vanisource:BG 8.20|BG 8.20]]). Why not call Paṇḍita Mahāśaya? (Pradyumna)</p>
<p>David Lawrence: Paras tasmāt...?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Paṇḍita Mahāśaya.</p>
<p>Śrutakīrti: Can you get Pradyumna?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got nice index in this book.</p>
<p>David Lawrence: Yes, indeed.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: You can find out any verse. Paraḥ tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyaktaḥ avyaktāt sanātanaḥ.</p>
<p>Śrutakīrti:</p>
:paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo
:'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ
:yaḥ sa sarveṣu bhūteṣu
:naśyatsu na vinaśyati
:([[Vanisource:BG 8.20|BG 8.20]])
<p>Prabhupāda: Translation?</p>
<p>Śrutakīrti: "Yet there is another nature which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: So that is spiritual world. This material world is created. The spiritual world is not created; it is eternal.</p>
<p>David Lawrence: Yes.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: So we have given an idea of the picture.</p>
<p>Haṁsadūta: He's coming.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: So there is another nature, which is called spiritual nature. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ ([[Vanisource:BG 8.20|BG 8.20]]). Paraḥ. That is also admitted by all the ācāryas. Just (like) Śaṅkarācārya... You have heard the name of Śaṅkarācārya?</p>
<p>David Lawrence: Hm-hm.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: He also says, nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ avyaktāt. Nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ. So there is paraḥ. Paraḥ means superior. Nārāyaṇa belongs to that superior nature. That means spiritual nature. Yes.</p>
<p>David Lawrence: This is a knowing habit of the western mind, you know, to think in spatial terms, and it's possibly hang-ups from Christian theology, in a sense, that I wanted to persist with this questioning even further about, you know, the real nature, as far as the Bhagavad-gītā gives it to us.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, you have to become little free from the biased ideas of Christian philosophy.</p>
<p>David Lawrence: This is what I thought, yes. This is what I thought.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Otherwise you cannot make progress.</p>
<p>David Lawrence: Yes, yes.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Otherwise it is impossible.</p>
<p>David Lawrence: Yes. It's humility...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: You have to come to the platform of general, common sense.</p>
<p>David Lawrence: Yes.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: If you become biased, then it will be impossible.</p>
<p>David Lawrence: Yes.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you cannot make progress. You have to come to the platform... Now, the common sense is that can you distinguish between matter and spirit? Can you distinguish?</p>
<p>David Lawrence: In what, in what respect?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That I was speaking, that the distinction between matter and spirit: the spirit is the vital force...</p>
<p>David Lawrence: Yes.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: ...or you call spirit soul or ātmā. That you can distinguish. As soon as the vital force is off from this body, this body is a lump of matter. Therefore even if you do not know the spirit soul, any sane man can guess that something is missing in this body. Therefore this body is called dead. Now, that something is described definitely, is soul. So we can distinguish between the spirit and soul, some way or other. So as there is material world, there must be some spiritual world. Otherwise how the spirit is there? The spirit is there, the soul is there. That is spiritual. So two things we are experiencing: spirit and matter. So as we are experiencing this material world, so similarly there must be a spiritual world. There must be a spiritual world. Otherwise wherefrom the spirit comes?</p>
<p>David Lawrence: Yes, yes.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Now, this spirit is eternal. That is the first understanding. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ ([[Vanisource:BG 2.13|BG 2.13]]). This spirit is occupying a material body at the present moment. And the next, when this... Just like I am in this apartment. If I find some inconvenience, I go to another apartment. Or the lease is expired, I have to leave it. Some way or other, I change. Similarly, the... You can change your coat. So these are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya ([[Vanisource:BG 2.22|BG 2.22]]). Ex..., very nicely exemplified. So we are changing this apartment or dress and accepting another. This is going on. This is the material world. But I, the spirit soul, eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇo na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre ([[Vanisource:BG 2.20|BG 2.20]]). Find out this verse. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. Second Chapter. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you can introduce, study some Bhagavad-gītā among the students, oh, it will, it will be a great service.</p>
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