View source for So anyone can be trained up. Just like these boys. They were fourth class, fifth class. And now they are trained up to become first-class men. Just like anyone can become geographer, anyone can become engineer by proper training

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<div id="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="section" sec_index="5" parent="compilation" text="Conversations and Morning Walks"><h2>Conversations and Morning Walks</h2>
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<div id="1975_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="sub_section" sec_index="8" parent="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" text="1975 Conversations and Morning Walks"><h3>1975 Conversations and Morning Walks</h3>
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<div id="RoomConversationwithJustinMurphyGeographerMay141975Perth_0" class="quote" parent="1975_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" book="Con" index="71" link="Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth" link_text="Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth">
<div class="heading">So anyone can be trained up. Just like these boys. They were fourth class, fifth class. And now they are trained up to become first-class men. Just like anyone can become geographer, anyone can become engineer by proper training.
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth|Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth]]: </span><div class="text"><p style="display: inline;">Paramahaṁsa:</p>
:śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ
:kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca
:jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ
:brahma-karma svabhāva-jam
:([[Vanisource:BG 18.42|BG 18.42]])
<p>Translation: "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: This is first-class man.</p>
<p>Justin Murphy: Who decides whether a man, then, is..., fits into those criteria and becomes a first-class man? Who decides? Who is to say whether a man is first class or not?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He should be first of all qualified like this. What is that?</p>
<p>Paramahaṁsa: Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness.</p>
<p>Justin Murphy: But once a man has strived for those qualities, how does he know when he's attained them? And...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, you... Śamaḥ, śamaḥ. The first word is śamaḥ?Śamaḥ means equilibrium of the mind. One should be trained up in such a way that he is not disturbed in his mind in any circumstance. That is called śamaḥ. And damaḥ, damaḥ means controlling the senses. Naturally I find one beautiful woman I want to talk with him (her), and he (she) is other's wife. But I should: "No, why should I talk with other's wife?" This is damaḥ, controlling the senses. So śamaḥ means keeping the mind always equipoised, and damaḥ, the controlling the mind. And suppose if... I have to eat something to live. So God has given me so many nice foodstuff: food grain, fruits, milk. Why should I kill an animal unnecessarily, for the taste of my tongue?</p>
<p>Justin Murphy: Selfishness.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: But I want to live. There are... India, eighty percent people, they are vegetarian. They are living very nicely. They are eating sufficient food grain and fruits and milk and milk product. God has given us so many. So why should we maintain slaughterhouse, killing other animals? So a first-class man will not do that. First-class man will think that "I want to eat something to keep myself fit. If by natural products I can keep myself fit, why shall I kill another animal?" And every religion teaches that. Now take in your Christian religion. Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." And they are maintaining slaughterhouse. So this is the condition of the society. How you can become happy? You are violating the rules and regulation of religion and God. You cannot become... Nature will disturb in so many ways. That is nature's business.</p>
<p>Justin Murphy: But so many of us, of course, are used to it. We like it.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, I am not talking about you particularly, but general way, general way. So this is first-class man. Śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣā. Now, suppose I was not a first-class man; I was a fourth-class man. Now I want to become a first-class man. So I was eating meat. Just these boys, European, American boys, they were eating everything. Now they have given up. On my word or to associate with me, they have given up meat-eating, illicit sex, meat-eating. So in the beginning it may be disturbing because "I am habituated to all these things, and by my spiritual master order not to do this..." So it may be disturbing. But that is called titikṣā, tolerance: "No, I have to do it. If I want to make progress to become first-class man, this is order, so I must do it even..." The tolerance. Even it is disturbing... In the beginning. It is not disturbing. In the beginning, because I habituated to do something... Just like a thief. If you ask him to become honest, it will be disturbing for him because he is habituated to steal.</p>
<p>So that we have to tolerate. Therefore it is called titikṣā. Śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣā ārjavam. Ārjavam means simple life, simplicity, that "If I can live in this way, why shall I acquire so many things for artificial life?" That is called ārjavam. Śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣā ārjavam, then jñānam. Jñānam means knowledge that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul. My..." Actually that is the fact. This body is not important. The living force within the body is important. As soon as the living force goes out of the body, what is this value? You may be a great geographer or scientist or Professor Einstein or whatever. As soon as the living force is gone, you are useless, this body is useless. You have to throw it. That is jñānam, that "I am taking so much care of this material body, which will not exist, which I shall, become... 'Dust thou art; dust thou beist.' Again it will mix up with these dirty things. I am taking so much care of this body. What about that living force, which is important?"</p>
<p>Nobody is taking care. Therefore they are not in jñānam, knowledge. They are in ignorance just like cats and dogs. This is called jñānam. And the vijñānam. Vijñānam means practical application of the knowledge. That is called vijñānam, science. Scientific knowledge there is. Jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. Āstikyam means to believe in the authority. That is called āstikyam. Just like we are speaking about this Bhagavad-gītā because it is spoken by the most supreme authority, Kṛṣṇa. To believe in the authority. You also believe in authority. But ultimately, in this way, if we acquire this qualification, then we become first-class man. So anyone can be trained up. Just like these boys. They were fourth class, fifth class. And now they are trained up to become first-class men. Just like anyone can become geographer, anyone can become engineer by proper training.</p>
<p>Justin Murphy: Do you think you'll make it?</p>
<p>Paramahaṁsa: I'm making progress.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: They are young men. They are all within thirty years.</p>
<p>Justin Murphy: And your aim, all of you, is to become first-class men?</p>
<p>Devotee: Yes.</p>
<p>Justin Murphy: Does it matter how long it might take you? Can you become first-class men soon, within five years?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, sufficient, sufficient. We can make in one year.</p>
<p>Justin Murphy: Really. I wish you all well. Well, I hope I won't give you offense if I look at my watch and say that...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a very important matter. If you do not spare time, that is your business, but... (laughs)</p>
<p>Justin Murphy: I'm afraid my life is one of these selfish lives. It's a life that's dominated by...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, it is natural, just natural. Just like why first-class men required in society? Just like in your body there is first-class part, second-class part, third-class part, and fourth-class part. Just like your head is the first-class part of your body. If your head is cut off, then everything is finished.</p>
<p>Justin Murphy: True.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Similarly, if in the society, if we don't create first-class men, that society is dead. That society is dead. So at the present moment there is no first-class men according to this word. Therefore there is chaotic condition, problems, and so on, so on, so on. So unless you create at least a few percentage of the people first-class men according to this standard, there cannot be any progress. This is my last word to you.</p>
<p>Justin Murphy: Thank you. I wish you all well, and maybe I should think along those lines myself. It's been most interesting talking to you.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes. It is necessary to create a class of men first class, ideal. And if you all create fourth-class men, then there cannot be peace. It is not possible.</p>
<p>Justin Murphy: Thank you.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.</p>
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