Religious experience

Expressions researched:
"religious experience"

CC Madhya-lila

CC Madhya 4.95, Purport:

In the Bhagavad-gītā (4.11) it is said, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham. There is a responsive cooperation between the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa and His devotees. The more a devotee sincerely loves Kṛṣṇa, the more Kṛṣṇa reciprocates, so much so that a highly advanced devotee can talk with Kṛṣṇa face to face. Kṛṣṇa confirms this in the Bhagavad-gītā (10.10):

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam

dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ taṁ yena mām upayānti te

"To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me." The actual mission of human life is to understand Kṛṣṇa and return home, back to Godhead. Therefore one who is sincerely engaged in the service of the Lord with love and faith can talk with Kṛṣṇa and receive instructions by which he can speedily return home, back to Godhead. Today many scholars defend the science of religion, and they have some conception of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but religion without practical experience of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is no religion at all. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam describes this as a form of cheating. Religion means abiding by the orders of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If one is not qualified to talk with Him and take lessons from Him, how can one understand the principles of religion? Thus talks of religion or religious experience without Kṛṣṇa consciousness are a useless waste of time.

Philosophy Discussions

Philosophy Discussion on William James:

Prabhupāda: This is inner experience. It is very simple. Because my father is, therefore I am born of him. He is born of his father, he is born of his father. Go on, that's it. That is, our śāstra says, ultimately you will come to Brahmā, the father of this universe. The Brahmā is also born of Nārāyaṇa, how you say, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, and the Garbhodakaśāyī, wherefrom He comes? Mahā-Viṣṇu, Kāraṇodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Wherefrom Mahā-Viṣṇu comes? From Saṅkarṣaṇa. Wherefrom Saṅkarṣaṇa comes? From Nārāyaṇa. Wherefrom Nārāyaṇa comes? He comes from Baladeva. Wherefrom does Baladeva comes? Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the Brahma-saṁhitā says,

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

(Bs. 5.1)

He is the original cause of all causes.

Śyāmasundara: He makes a few comments about religion. He says that "The religious experience is unique, and it enables the individual to realize that the world he perceives is part of a spiritual universe which alone gives the sensory world value, and that man's proper goal is to unite himself with that higher universe. That prayer or inner communion with the universal spirit or God is the means whereby spiritual energy flows in and produces effects, psychological or material, occurring in the phenomenal world. And that religious faith imparts a new zest to life, taking the form either of lyrical enchantment or of appeal to earnestness and heroism, and that religion contributes some assurance of safety and peace and teaches love in human relationships."

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Śyāmasundara: He says some nice things about...

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Philosophy Discussion on William James:

Hayagrīva: This is William James. All of these quotations are taken from his most famous book, which was entitled The Varieties of Religious Experience. He's an American philosopher. He defines religion in this way: "Were we to limit our view to it, we should have to define religion as an external art, the art of winning the favor of God. The relation goes direct from heart to heart, from soul to soul, between man and his maker."

Prabhupāda: The man or not man, there are living beings, varieties; we simply do not see the man as a living being. We see there are varieties of living beings, beginning from water up to the higher planetary system. There are different forms of living being, we have several times repeated. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati, like that, nine millions, ah, nine hundred thousands forms of body within the water; then plants, trees, creepers, insects. So all of them are living beings. God is concerned with all of them. Why man is created? Every one of us in different form we are created. Or exactly not created; we are part and parcel of God. In one word God is the father of all living entities. So the simple relationship is that God is maintainer, we are maintained. This is our relationship. In the material world, as a man may have more than one wife, so similarly God has two prakṛtis, or subordinate energies—material and spiritual. So in the material world the material nature is the mother, God is the father, and varieties of living entities, they are all maintained by the father, supreme father. This is the conception of universal brotherhood. And if we understand our relationship with God as father and son... There are so many sons. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-yoniṣu. All different forms of life, the mother is material nature, and God says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: (BG 14.4) "And I am the seed-giving father." So that relationship should be known, and if we act according to that relationship, there will be actual peace and prosperity and advancement of all knowledge. That is wanted.

Philosophy Discussion on William James:

Prabhupāda: Another artificial names. Artificial things cannot sustain, but if you engage yourself in the devotional process, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevā (SB 7.5.23), always hearing a about Kṛṣṇa, always talking about Kṛṣṇa, always remembering about Kṛṣṇa, always engage in some service in the temple—there are so many services—or distributing literature about Kṛṣṇa, in this way, if you keep always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business, that is perfection of life.

Hayagrīva: James, after analyzing all of these religions, different religious experiences, he gives his own conclusions, and he concludes his book in this way. He gives five basic conclusions. The first-one—"That the visible world is part of a more spiritual universe from which it draws its chief significance." (break)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Material world means it is existing in the spiritual effulgence of the Lord. Just like all the planets they are resting, living within the sunshine, but by geographical position, when it is back side, the sun is not in the front but in the back, then it becomes dark. Similarly, everything is existing in the spiritual effulgence, rays of the Lord, and when you forget, this is called material world. So the material world is in that piece of spiritual world, but forgetfulness of God is material. So when we..., our revival of consciousness, God consciousness, then there is no more material world. For such person who is advanced in spiritual consciousness or God consciousness, there is nothing material; everything is spiritual.

Philosophy Discussion on Carl Gustav Jung:

Prabhupāda: It is because it is simply dogmatic. The preachers of the religion, they have no idea, clear idea, but officially they speak something. Neither he understands, neither he can make others to understand. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not such big thing. It is clear in every respect. Therefore this is the expected movement as Mr. Jung wanted. So every sane man should cooperate with this movement and liberate the human society from the gross darkness of ignorance.

Hayagrīva: He characterizes the true religious man as one who is accustomed to the thought of not being sole master of his own house. He believes that God, and not he himself, decides in the end.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Naturally that is the position. What we can decide? That there is already controller over me, so how I can be Absolute? No. Therefore everyone should depend on the supreme controller. That is called, technical language, it is called śaraṇāgati, full surrender. Full surrender. That is called śaraṇāgati.

Hayagrīva: He feels that the only thing that keeps modern man..., that will keep modern man from simply dissolving into the crowd is, he says, "We must ask, 'Have I any religious experience, an immediate relation to God and hence that certainty which will keep me as an individual from dissolving in the crowd of humanity?' " So one's relation with God assures one of one's individuality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is individual. God is also individual. So one individual is subordinate to the chief individual. That is the Vedic version. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), God is also individual being, but He is the Supreme Being, and we are individual being, innumerable. So the difference is that the supreme living being is maintaining us, and we are being maintained. That we should understand. The same example as I gave, the father and the children in the family. The father is maintainer and the children are maintained. This is the real conception of philosophy. The mother is the material nature and father is God, and we are all children. We have got rights to enjoy the father's property, but not encroaching upon others', but as it is allotted by the father. "You sit down here, you take this, that's all," that, that much right I have got. I do not transgress the order of the father; then it is peaceful situation.

Philosophy Discussion on Aristotle:

Prabhupāda: Yes, this can be explained. The body is just like the dress of the soul. So our dress is made according to our body. The tailor takes the measurement of the body and makes the coat accordingly. So the coat appears with the hand because we have got hand. Coat, pant appears as a leg because we have got leg. So this body is simply a, what is called, coating or shirting of the soul. Actually the soul has got form, shape, form, and therefore the cloth, which will generally have no shape, is, when it comes in contact with the soul, it becomes a shape.

Hayagrīva: Now for both Plato and Aristotle, God is known by reason, not by revelation or by religious experience, not by mystical experience...

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. You cannot... God is unlimited. You have got limited power to see or to smell or to touch. You have got all limited, and God is unlimited. So you cannot understand God by your limited power of sensual activities. Therefore God is revelation. We say that ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (CC Madhya 17.136). You cannot understand by speculating your senses. That is not possible. When you engage yourself in His service, then He reveals. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). God says that "I am not exposed to everyone. I am covered by the yoga-māyā." That is fact. So unless God reveals Himself... So God not only reveals, He appears, and great authorities, they are searching. Just like Kṛṣṇa appeared, and great authorities like Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Śukadeva Gosvāmī and then the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu-big, big stalwart scholars and transcendentalists—they accepted Kṛṣṇa. All the śāstras accept Kṛṣṇa. Long, long years, five thousand years, when there was no philosophy in the Western world, God revealed Himself, face to face. Arjuna saw Him and he accepted Him. And similarly other great persons accepted Him. So God is not to be speculated, but by one's service, when He is pleased, He reveals Himself.

Philosophy Discussion on Samuel Alexander:

Prabhupāda: Because there is nothing but God, so how he can be without God? Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is God's expansion. How it can be sometimes in God and sometimes not in God? When he is not in God, that means he is māyā. Now māyā is also God, mama māyā. So how he can be without God? That is illusion. Just like these criminal. He thinks, "I can be independent of the government." No. That is not possible. Either he will remain in jail or outside the jail, you are under the government. But he thinks that "I am free." That is foolishness. He is not free at anytime.

Hayagrīva: Now he analyzes theism, which is the personal aspect, and pantheism, the impersonal aspect, and he finds both defective in themselves, and so what is his position? This is his position: "If the question is asked whether the speculative conception of God or Deity which has been advanced here as part of the empirical treatment of space/time, and has appeared to be verified by religious experience belongs to theism or pantheism, the answer must be that it is not strictly referable to either of them. Taken by itself..."

Prabhupāda: That is his mistake. As you have explained that the sky is also with reference to God... The sky is explained as the heart of God, and the water is explained as the semina of God, the moon is explained as the mind of God, the sun is explained as the eyes of God, the land is explained as the foot of God. So everything is with reference to God. So for a person who understands God, there is nothing existing without God. So how God can be separate? That is the fact. So pantheism or any "ism" you take, it has reference with God. What he says?

Hayagrīva: This, he goes on to say, he says it doesn't belong, strictly belong, strictly belong to theism or pantheism. "The answer must be it is not strictly referable to either taken by itself, that in different respects it belongs to both, and that if a choice must be made, it is theistic," that is personal, "for God for us is..."

Prabhupāda: That, that means when you come to the personal God you see that everything is with reference to God. There is nothing independent. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaro. That is explained, that this viśvarūpa universe is Bhagavān, but it appears that it is different from Bhagavān to the less intelligent. So then there cannot exist anything without Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but those who have no sufficient knowledge, they think that "This is separate from God and God is separate from you."

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Bob: Indian, Indian, lives nearby. He speaks English fairly well. When he was young, said he worshiped Kālī every day very vigorously. But then the floods all came, and the floods came, and the people saw hardship. But now he has no religion, and he says he finds his happiness in trying to develop love among people. And I couldn't think of what to say to him to add religion to his life, to add God to his life. He says, "After the hereafter," he says, after he dies, "so maybe I'll become part of God, maybe not," he says, but he can't worry about it now. He says he's tried this religious experience; it didn't work. And one reason I ask this is when I go back to America a lot of people I come across are like this. They see that religion, like his worship of Kālī or other kinds of religion that they've experienced doesn't work. And I don't know what to say to them to convince them that it's worth trying.

Prabhupāda: Hm. You do not try to convince him at the present moment. You try to be convinced yourself.

Bob: (laughs) Yes, yes. I did... I asked him to see devotees, but then on the way out as he was leaving down the road I met him again and talked, "Come back," but... Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: You first of all be convinced and then try to convince others. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction is that you can do welfare for others when your life is success.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: When he was taking LSD, did you like that?

Mother: I didn't know, did I?

Prabhupāda: Then?

Mother: Until afterwards, and we found him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mother: And this is it.

Prabhupāda: So there must be division for upkeep of the soc... That is missing. At the present moment, there is no division.

Mother: But he had a false religious experience, due to the LSD.

Prabhupāda: No, I am talking generally, not of him, that everything must be, there must be division. Just like naturally we have got division. The whole object is to keep the body fit, but there is division: the head division, the arm division, the stomach division, and the leg division. So similarly, there must be four classes of men in the society: the intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men, and the laborer class of men. Everything is required. But not that the intelligent class of man has to learn the business of the laborer class of men. That is not required. Just try to understand. The laborer class of men, they are required. But one who is intelligent class, he, he cannot be trained up as laborer, ordinary laborer in the factory. That is mistake. He must work according to his capacity. If he's intelligent, he must be preacher, he must be God conscious. He would educate people that "This eating, sleeping is not all. There is God. You should understand. You have got a relationship with Him. If you want to have better life next, then you must become God conscious, you must be sinless." These things are required in the society. (loud noise of jet going over). What is the use of talking?

Mother: Father, I understand that you have translated ten books.

Prabhupāda: Now again. Again the same question.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Revatīnandana: Um-huh.

Jesuit Priest: In fact, I can say, by... I'm a Catholic priest, and by and large, I think our men, who are to, doing the translations are pretty, like, good chaps anyhow.

Revatīnandana: Hmh. So if, if the translators and the knowledge are adequate, then why is it, as Mrs. Christie just pointed out that so many young people are interested instead in false religious experience of LSD?

Jesuit Priest: Well, I wouldn't know. Because, I would say, because there's some kind of inadequacy in their lives. There's something missing, and that, the thing which is missing, is what we in the Catholic Church call the life of grace, the supernatural. Somehow, something's gone wrong somewhere. And so, they, lots of the young people today...

Prabhupāda: That, that I was trying to explain, that nobody can understand God and God's conception, being sinful.

Jesuit Priest: There's a vacuum created, and so they'd rather take it up in...

Mother: It's very extraordinary, though, that every boy that I have spoken to here...

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam... (BG 7.28).

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Jesuit Priest: Good-bye, thanks, good-bye.

Mother: Good-bye, all of you. Bye. (Break)

Revatīnandana: ...question that she said, he came to us because he was taking LSD and he had a false religious experience. And the question is now, if they have access to a true religious experience, why was he looking for a false religious experience? Why was Michael looking for a false religious experience from LSD if he had already got true religion? They didn't understand. Their best children are taking LSD because they can't get any satisfaction from their parents' religion.

Śrutakīrti: He answered that by saying he didn't have that supernatural grace.

Revatīnandana: Yeah, why not? That's pretty clear, actually. "Well, we love God. Yes, we love God." A steak and a glass of wine and God.

Śrutakīrti: I think a storm is coming.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Śrutakīrti: A rainstorm is...

Prabhupāda: Rainstorm? No.

Revatīnandana: Little, little... It might rain. It's not for a while. But when it gets misty, it sometimes rains.

Prabhupāda: You can understand from the cloud. When it's blackish, then there is rain. (Break) (end)

Room Conversation with Mister Popworth and E. F. Schumacher -- July 26, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: And there is list of accidents, injuries.

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Revatīnandana: And just like yesterday, Mahādeva's parents came here, his mother came here along with a Jesuit family priest, about sixty years old. And she accused us that we had come and kidnapped him out of the university. And we said, "Actually, we didn't kidnap him. He came to our temple and didn't want to go away," which is what happened. She said, "Well, that's because he took some LSD and he had a false religious experience." So then I asked the Jesuit priest, "If your religious experience is as pure as he had just been saying, then why was this boy, trained up in a Jesuit school, seeking after spiritual life from a false religious process? Why was he taking LSD in the first place if his religion was satisfactory?" And he couldn't answer it. He said, "Well, there seems to be some kind of a spiritual," what did he say, "a spiritual lack or a spiritual something at this time for some reason." But he would not define it that he was unable to fill that spiritual lack by his process. And yet, we have filled that lack, or our spiritual master has filled that lack for thousands of young people now, who are not only God conscious, but they're practicing it every minute of every day. And they're practicing it practically, in the city or in the community or in the farm or wherever they are. So it's not that we're contesting the origins. The origin from Christ may have been very pure, but its present manifestation appears to be lacking something. And the young people are seeing that.

Prabhupāda: Just for example, that in the Ten Commandments, the first Commandment is "Thou shall not kill." So when I ask any Christian gentleman, "Then why you are killing?" they cannot give me any satisfactory answer. (pause)

Room Conversation with Cardinal Danielou -- August 9, 1973, Paris:

Yogeśvara: But still we find that the French young people today are at the head of all the revolutionary philosophies and movements.

Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Yes. But it is not the majority of the young men and this revolutionary spirit is amongst many youths, some research, research of the Absolute. Some young men are communist and Marxist, surely. But many youths, today have a spirit of research factually. In, insatisfied with actual religious forms, but receives any religious experience, a spiritual experience...

Prabhupāda: That is the latest thing. They are now disgusted with these religious rituals without philosophy.

Yogeśvara: (translates)

Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui, it is so, it is so. They have accepted some formalism, ritualism. They do not like this. But receives a personal and internal experience.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: They say? It is simply cheating. They found this in Arizona, somebody... (laughter) And laboratory work.

Bahulāśva: I have been trying to arrange a meeting between Your Divine Grace and that astronaut. He was going to come to Rathayātrā, but he had to go to Florida for some space project.

Prabhupāda: What does he say, astronaut?

Bahulāśva: He says that... His name is Edgar Mitchell, and he was one of the men who went to the moon. But we talked, and he said... He thinks he has gone to the moon. But he said that when he was there, he had a religious experience, and he felt that there was a God. When he went to the moon, he had this experience. So when he came back, he was telling all his scientist friends what his experience was. So they became very afraid, and they kicked him out of the space project. They thought he had become a fanatic, religious sentimentalist, so they kicked him out. So now he has opened up an institute for noetic sciences or... It is some Greek word. It means like spiritual sciences. He wants to prove to the scientific world that there is God.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. He is good.

Bahulāśva: So we gave him a copy of Easy Journey to Other Planets and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and he's been reading that. He is friends with that other scientist, Wernher Von Braun, who gave that speech also saying that he feels that there is definitely God by his scientific studies. We also wrote him a letter, but we haven't gotten any response. Svarūpa Dāmodara prabhu wrote him also.

Prabhupāda: What he is?

Bahulāśva: He is a very big scientist for Fairchild. He started the space project.

Harikeśa: He invented those rockets in Germany.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, he was actually captured. He used to work for Hitler. He invented the V-2 rockets that bombed London, or was one of them.

Bahulāśva: He gave a very nice talk in San Francisco.

Prabhupāda: Oh. About?

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- March 14, 1976, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Duskrtino mūḍhaḥ. Anyone commits sin, he is a rascal. Ordinarily also. A person kills somebody—that means he is rascal. He is rascal. He does not care for the law. That means rascal. So any sinful man is a rascal. Without being rascal, one cannot commit sin.

Devotee: Last week in Bombay, Śrīla Prabhupāda, an American astronaut that went to the moon, they asked him if he experienced God or he felt some help from God in his trip. And he said, "No, I had no religious experience. God must have gone the other way."

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Gurukṛpā: Which way was that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said that when he...

Devotee: He went to the moon.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: When he went up in the space capsule to the moon, he had no religious experience, so he thought that there was no God.

Prabhupāda: So space traveling induces a man to accept God?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think it's a material conception, that God is in the heavens, above the clouds.

Pañca-draviḍa: According to Bhāgavatam, these...

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Beyond this material universe, very, very far away.

Hrdayananda: But another astronaut who went, he had religious experience, and after coming back he became missionary.

Prabhupāda: That is natural.

Sudāmā: Another astronaut went insane.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Sudāmā: And another astronaut went insane, like a madman.

Prabhupāda: Hm. What was the reason?

Sudāmā: For his insanity? He could not explain.

Jayatīrtha: Insanity is also a result of sinful activities.

Pañca-draviḍa: Too much passion.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We live in this material world, and we're in so much ignorance that we don't know who it belongs to. Is that due to sinful activities?

Prabhupāda: Hm? What is this?

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Kern: Did you then begin, after you finished the university, did you begin your writing?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I was family man. But even one is family man, he's trained up how to become God conscious. So that was the.... That is, practically every Indian, at least in our time, they were trained up how to become God conscious in the family life. Therefore there is classification—the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya. So these four classes, that first-class man, brāhmaṇa, the brain..., taking instruction from the first-class man. And then the third grade, the productive class. So you read there the third class.

Scheverman: So I can see that this is probably an important element that appeals to most of the young people that come to you is this training that can be received in this particular way. I can also see too that somewhere..., I'd like to move into this area of religious experience.

Prabhupāda: I shall request that.... There is no question of Eastern, Western. Now people are intermingling. Now I think that we shall have institution, especially in America, to train these first class, second class, third class, and the balance fourth class. Who cannot take up any training, they are fourth class. So how they should be trained up, that indication is there. It is not the question of Eastern and Western. You become peaceful...

Scheverman: Now, how would you proceed in this training program? I'd be interested in that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is.... If I say that "Live peacefully," this instruction is neither exclusively for America or Indian. It is for everyone.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Kern: The Kṛṣṇa movement, in the Kṛṣṇa movement.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa movement I started 1966.

Kern: '66.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kern: In the West? In California?

Prabhupāda: Here in your America.

Scheverman: America. I would like perhaps to hear some of your thoughts on the area of religious experience, God consciousness, how do you achieve that?

Prabhupāda: I wrote one letter to your secretary.

Mādhavānanda: The President?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (to devotee) What is the purport? You just explain.

Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda wrote that on the bills, the monetary, on the coins or whatever, they put "In God We Trust," but actually no one understands. If you want to trust someone, then you have to know who that person is, you have to know that he's actually trustworthy. So he was asking that we could cooperate together, the American government and our movement, and we could train people practically how to trust God, like that. So Prabhupāda sent that letter. But that was a month ago, and there's still no reply.

Scheverman: To the Secretary of the Treasury? Is that it?

Devotees: The Secretary of the President.

Scheverman: The President, White House Secretary, his personal secretary.

Hari-śauri: So far, after one month, there's no reply.

Scheverman: Bureaucracy. We have lots of that. You may get a reply, and then again you may not. You'll get a reply, but it would be very general I presume, originally. It's a good idea.

Prabhupāda: No, I think that for the welfare of the whole human society.... America is opulent. They can start, that here is a college for training first-class men. Here is a college for training second-class men, and here is a college for third-class men, and balance fourth class. Fourth-class man doesn't require any training. They are simply to help the first class, second class, third class.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: Just like a school. A school is open for everyone. Whoever wants to take up education, he can come.

Scheverman: I can understand that very well, because I have been a teacher for many years, and also the principal of the school, and can understand your educational concepts and the importance of them. You cannot operate a school without discipline, without training. People cannot use their brains useless they are in order.

Prabhupāda: No, there must be proper training.

Kern: God consciousness..., would you explain something of the religious experience of God consciousness?

Prabhupāda: No, God consciousness is the highest level. It is not possible for everyone. But in whatever platform he is, if there is cooperation with God consciousness movement, then he gets the result. Just like in this body.... Same example: leg's duty is different and brain duty is different, hand's duty is different, belly's duty different, but when there is cooperation, all the parts of the body derive the same benefit.

Scheverman: Yes, I see. So if one has the experience of God in a cooperative, well, good and sound social body, then all will profit from that experience.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- December 26, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hari-śauri: To get the sun if you like.

Jagadīśa: "But such tactics are a gross violation of fundamental human and constitutional rights are to go without saying. In cases where victims have instigated charges of kidnapping against parents and deprogrammers, grand juries have thus far refused to issue indictments apparently because the work is done at the behest of parents or other relatives and ostensibly for the good of the victim. The situation which has prompted me to communicate with members of the professional psychiatric community involves sweeping implications of a very important legal case which will be going to trial sometime in the late winter or early spring. Some background of the case may be helpful here." Then he explains about the case. Anyway, it's very nicely written. And he's mostly trying to expose that the psychiatrists have to take an objective standpoint. Otherwise, there are some psychiatrists who are atheistic and they are contending that any religious experience or so-called religious consciousness is a...

Prabhupāda: Artificial dependence.

Jagadīśa: ...artificial dependence, yeah. So this is...

Prabhupāda: They say that there is a tissue in the brain, they disturb with this religious idea. They say like that. And if that tissue is operated then there will be no more religion. They can do that. With a brain operation he'll forget willfully. These rascal, so-called scientists, they can do anything.

1973 Correspondence

Letter to Sir Alistair Hardy -- Bhaktivedanta Manor 28 July, 1973:

Sir Alister Hardy, F.R.S.

Religious experience research unit

Manchester College

Oxford OX1 3td

Dear Sir Alister Hardy,

I beg to thank you for your coming here yesterday evening, we had very nice talks on religious experience, and I have studied your replies to my questions very carefully.

My first question was "what is the problem of the human life?" So I have already explained, the problem is that at the present moment there is no proper understanding of God. Human life is especially meant for this purpose, to understand God. That is quite natural, cats and dogs or lower animals or man almost like animal cannot understand God, neither they think such things are necessary, that one should understand God, and his relationship with him.

According to Vedic understanding, a human being without understanding of God is no better than an animal, and that is a practical proposition, that is the only difference between an animal and a man. For man there is a religious system—scriptures, it may be Bible, Koran, Bhagavad-gita, Or Srimad-Bhagavatam, it doesn't matter everywhere there is a system, religious system, philosophical system to try to understand the supreme power. In your research institute you are also trying to explain that supreme power. Your research institution is the latest institution to study that supreme power. Therefore the right conclusion is, the problem of the human society at the present moment is to understand God, or as you say, the supreme power.

Letter to Sir Alistair Hardy -- Bhaktivedanta Manor 28 July, 1973:

So all these problems are due only to a lack of God consciousness. Therefore is you can actually help people to know about the supreme powerful that will be a great help. But I see that your method is not very satisfactory. You are making research by accepting the statements of common peoples expression of religious sentiment. There is no need of research, the result of research in this matter is already there perfectly presented in Bhagavad-gita, all we have to do is accept it and the whole problem of research is solved. You want to establish your conclusion of religious experience by taking the opinions of laymen. A laymans sentimental expression about religious problems is not a practical understanding of religious problems. Religion as we have explained means the orders of God, therefore it must be scientifically studied, what are his orders, how to abide by them. Simply by taking statistics of the sentiments of common men we cannot come to the right conclusion.