Prabhupāda: So, if he's trying for becoming liberated, it is understood that he was not liberated.
Dr. Patel: He must have been disillusioned by all this. He has really done work in this way that anybody would be disillusioned.
Prabhupāda: Now, our point is that if you are not liberated, how you can become leader? That is cheating.
Dr. Patel: This is the (indistinct). The political, socio-political... I don't know the sort of...
Prabhupāda: Our point is that if you do not get knowledge from liberated person, that knowledge is useless. That is cheating. (break) It is very easy. Just like a child. If he takes your direction, he liberated, and if he acts according to his childish nature, then he's conditioned. If you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then you are liberated. If you manufacture your own idea, then you are conditioned. Two things. Child is not actually liberated. He is child. But because he takes blindly the direction of the father, he's liberated. That is mām eva ye prapadyante. Anyone who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa and strictly follows what Kṛṣṇa says, then he is liberated. Otherwise not. If he manufactures idea, then he's conditioned.