View source for Excommunicated

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[[Category:Excommunicated|1]]
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<div id="Sri_Caitanya-caritamrta" class="section" sec_index="2" parent="compilation" text="Sri Caitanya-caritamrta"><h2>Sri Caitanya-caritamrta</h2>
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<div id="CC_Madhya-lila" class="sub_section" sec_index="2" parent="Sri_Caitanya-caritamrta" text="CC Madhya-lila"><h3>CC Madhya-lila</h3>
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<div id="CCMadhya1969_0" class="quote" parent="CC_Madhya-lila" book="CC" index="4308" link="CC Madhya 19.69" link_text="CC Madhya 19.69">
<div class="heading">Actually Rūpa Gosvāmī did not belong to a lower caste. He was from a highly aristocratic brāhmaṇa family, but due to his association with the Muslim Nawab, he was considered fallen and was excommunicated from brāhmaṇa society.
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:CC Madhya 19.69|CC Madhya 19.69, Translation and Purport]]: </span><div style="display: inline;" class="trans text"><p style="display: inline;">Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, “Don’t touch him, for he belongs to a very low caste. You are a follower of Vedic principles and are a well experienced performer of many sacrifices. You also belong to the aristocracy.”</p>
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<div class="purport text"><p>Generally brāhmaṇas are puffed up with false prestige because they belong to the aristocracy and perform many Vedic sacrifices. In South India especially, this fastidious position is most prominent. At any rate, this was the case five hundred years ago. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu actually started a revolution against this brahminical system by inaugurating the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. By this chanting, one can be delivered regardless of caste, creed, color or social position. Whoever chants the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra is immediately purified due to the transcendental position of devotional service. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is here hinting to Vallabha Bhaṭṭācārya that an exalted brāhmaṇa who makes sacrifices and follows Vedic principles should not neglect a person who is engaged in devotional service by chanting the holy name of the Lord.</p>
<p>Actually Rūpa Gosvāmī did not belong to a lower caste. He was from a highly aristocratic brāhmaṇa family, but due to his association with the Muslim Nawab, he was considered fallen and was excommunicated from brāhmaṇa society. However, due to his advanced devotional service, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted him as a gosvāmī. Vallabha Bhaṭṭācārya knew all this. One who is a devotee is above caste and creed, yet Vallabha Bhaṭṭācārya felt himself prestigious.</p>
<p>The present head of the Vallabha Bhaṭṭācārya sampradāya of Bombay is named Dīkṣita Mahārāja. He is very friendly to our movement, and whenever we meet him, this learned brāhmaṇa scholar highly praises the activities of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. He is a life member of our Society, and although he is a learned scholar in the brahminical caste tradition, he accepts our Society and considers its members bona fide devotees of Lord Viṣṇu.</p>
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<div id="Other_Books_by_Srila_Prabhupada" class="section" sec_index="3" parent="compilation" text="Other Books by Srila Prabhupada"><h2>Other Books by Srila Prabhupada</h2>
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<div id="Teachings_of_Lord_Caitanya" class="sub_section" sec_index="0" parent="Other_Books_by_Srila_Prabhupada" text="Teachings of Lord Caitanya"><h3>Teachings of Lord Caitanya</h3>
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<div id="TLC9_0" class="quote" parent="Teachings_of_Lord_Caitanya" book="OB" index="15" link="TLC 9" link_text="Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 9">
<div class="heading">Sanātana Gosvāmī was considered to be fallen according to the Hindu social system because he was in the service of the Mohammedan government. Indeed, he had even been excommunicated from brahminical society due to his employment. But because he was a sincere soul, Lord Caitanya showed him special favor by granting him a wealth of spiritual information.
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:TLC 9|Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 9]]: </span><div style="display: inline;" class="text"><p style="display: inline;">Since Lord Caitanya is especially merciful to innocent, unsophisticated persons, His name is also Patitapāvana, the deliverer of the most fallen conditioned souls. Although a conditioned soul may be fallen to the lowest position, it is possible for him to advance in spiritual science if he is innocent. Sanātana Gosvāmī was considered to be fallen according to the Hindu social system because he was in the service of the Mohammedan government. Indeed, he had even been excommunicated from brahminical society due to his employment. But because he was a sincere soul, Lord Caitanya showed him special favor by granting him a wealth of spiritual information.</p>
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<div id="Lectures" class="section" sec_index="4" parent="compilation" text="Lectures"><h2>Lectures</h2>
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<div id="Bhagavad-gita_As_It_Is_Lectures" class="sub_section" sec_index="0" parent="Lectures" text="Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures"><h3>Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures</h3>
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<div id="LectureonBG120LondonJuly171973_0" class="quote" parent="Bhagavad-gita_As_It_Is_Lectures" book="Lec" index="13" link="Lecture on BG 1.20 -- London, July 17, 1973" link_text="Lecture on BG 1.20 -- London, July 17, 1973">
<div class="heading">You know, the Tagore family of Calcutta, Rabindranatha Tagore, they are also brāhmaṇas. But we know, in our childhood, they were also excommunicated from the brāhmaṇa family because they also accepted service.
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:Lecture on BG 1.20 -- London, July 17, 1973|Lecture on BG 1.20 -- London, July 17, 1973]]: </span><div style="display: inline;" class="text"><p style="display: inline;">Therefore formerly a brāhmaṇa, when he accepts a service from anywhere, he was rejected from the brāhmaṇa society. You know, Sanātana Gosvāmī. Sanātana Gosvāmī, Rūpa Gosvāmī, they belonged to a very high-class brāhmaṇa, Sarasvata Brāhmaṇa, very rich men. But both the brothers accepted service in Mohammedan government as ministers, and they were immediately rejected from the brāhmaṇa society. It is not very long ago, say, about five hundred years ago. The brāhmaṇa society was so strong. As soon as they will accept service. You know, the Tagore family of Calcutta, Rabindranatha Tagore, they are also brāhmaṇas. But we know, in our childhood, they were also excommunicated from the brāhmaṇa family because they also accepted service.</p>
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<div id="Srimad-Bhagavatam_Lectures" class="sub_section" sec_index="1" parent="Lectures" text="Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures"><h3>Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures</h3>
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<div id="LectureonSB552HyderabadApril131975_0" class="quote" parent="Srimad-Bhagavatam_Lectures" book="Lec" index="529" link="Lecture on SB 5.5.2 -- Hyderabad, April 13, 1975" link_text="Lecture on SB 5.5.2 -- Hyderabad, April 13, 1975">
<div class="heading">Any brāhmaṇa accepting service, he'll be immediately excommunicated: "No, you are not brāhmaṇa." Brāhmaṇa's business is not to serve others. Brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. They should remain... Everyone was independent. Brāhmaṇa independent, kṣatriya independent, vaiśya independent. Simply śūdra's dependent.
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:Lecture on SB 5.5.2 -- Hyderabad, April 13, 1975|Lecture on SB 5.5.2 -- Hyderabad, April 13, 1975]]: </span><div class="text"><p style="display: inline;">Prabhupāda:</p>
:kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī
:dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau pūjitau
:śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau bhuvi bhuvo bhārāvahantārakau
:vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau
<p>This is the... The six Gosvāmīs of Vṛndāvana, they lived in Vṛndāvana by the order... The present Vṛndāvana, holy place, was made by Rūpa Gosvāmī and Sanātana Gosvāmī. These two brothers, they were ministers in the government of Nawab Hussain Shah. Practically they became Muhammadans; their name were changed. Because in those days the brāhmaṇa community was very strict. Any brāhmaṇa accepting service, he'll be immediately excommunicated: "No, you are not brāhmaṇa." Brāhmaṇa's business is not to serve others. Brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. They should remain... Everyone was independent. Brāhmaṇa independent, kṣatriya independent, vaiśya independent. Simply śūdra's dependent. So in those days, five hundred years ago, these two brothers were born of a very high class brāhmaṇa. They were learned scholar, but because they accepted the service of Nawab, they were excommunicated. So practically they become Muhammadans. Their names were changed: Dabira Khāsa, Sākara Mallika. But Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu made them gosvāmī. This is Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They were rejected by the brāhmaṇa community, and Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu made them Sanātana Gosvāmī, Rūpa Gosvāmī. The gosvāmī is not a caste title. Gosvāmī means who has control over the senses. Go means senses and svāmī means master. Those who are servant of the senses, they cannot become gosvāmī. That is not gosvāmī. Servant of senses, that is go-dāsa, not gosvāmī. So the Gosvāmī... Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau, the six Gosvāmīs, six Gosvāmīs, and if we follow their footprints, rūpānuga-varāya te, then he also becomes gosvāmī. This is the process.</p>
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<div id="Philosophy_Discussions" class="sub_section" sec_index="13" parent="Lectures" text="Philosophy Discussions"><h3>Philosophy Discussions</h3>
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<div id="PhilosophyDiscussiononThomasAquinas_0" class="quote" parent="Philosophy_Discussions" book="Lec" index="32" link="Philosophy Discussion on Thomas Aquinas" link_text="Philosophy Discussion on Thomas Aquinas">
<div class="heading">Yes, because the world activities must be regulated to the ultimate goal, understanding of God. Human civilization is meant for understanding God. So although the Church or the brāhmaṇas may not directly handle administrative activities, but it must be done under their supervision, or under their instruction.
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:Philosophy Discussion on Thomas Aquinas|Philosophy Discussion on Thomas Aquinas]]: </span><div class="text"><p style="display: inline;">Hayagrīva: Concerning law and government, Aquinas believed in the Divine Law, which consisted of the commandments of God given in the Bible. Aquinas felt that human laws also have some moral bearing, and that they also emanate indirectly from God, for he felt that all earthly powers exist by God's permission. Ideally, the Church is God's emissary on earth, and Aquinas considered it proper that the Church control earthly secular power as well. That is, he felt the secular rulers should remain subservient to the Church, and he felt that the Church could excommunicate, that means throw out, a monarch or ruler, in which case the ruler could no longer claim his throne. In other words, that the church has not only spiritual power but secular power on earth. Should have.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes, because the world activities must be regulated to the ultimate goal, understanding of God. Human civilization is meant for understanding God. So although the Church or the brāhmaṇas may not directly handle administrative activities, but it must be done under their supervision, or under their instruction. That is Vedic system. The brāhmaṇa is the Church, and the kṣatriya, the administrator. So the administrator used to take instruction from the brāhmaṇas, or one who can deliver a spiritual message. This is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, that Kṛṣṇa, millions of years ago, He instructed the message of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god. Sun-god is the origin of administrators, kṣatriya. So therefore the king, or the kṣatriya who administrators the business of the state, if he follows the instruction of veda through the brāhmaṇa or the Church, then he is called rājarṣi-king, and at the same time saintly person. Although he is king, he is following the instruction of saintly person or the Church. So in this way if the brāhmaṇas or the Church are in order, their instruction is in order, and the administrators, kṣatriya, they follow that instruction, he is in order. So the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. Vaiśya, if he follows the instruction of the kṣatriya, he is in order, and śūdras, they have no intelligence; therefore they follow the instruction of the three superior orders. This is the division of the society.</p>
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<div id="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="section" sec_index="5" parent="compilation" text="Conversations and Morning Walks"><h2>Conversations and Morning Walks</h2>
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<div id="1976_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="sub_section" sec_index="9" parent="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" text="1976 Conversations and Morning Walks"><h3>1976 Conversations and Morning Walks</h3>
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<div id="RoomConversationJuly71976Baltimore_0" class="quote" parent="1976_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" book="Con" index="192" link="Room Conversation -- July 7, 1976, Baltimore" link_text="Room Conversation -- July 7, 1976, Baltimore">
<div class="heading">In Vedic civilization they keep, they have more than one wife. So what is the use of killing? Why one should kill?
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:Room Conversation -- July 7, 1976, Baltimore|Room Conversation -- July 7, 1976, Baltimore]]: </span><div class="text"><p style="display: inline;">Prabhupāda: Woman should be expert in cooking. That is their natural tendency. They should be educated how to cook nicely, how to please the husband, how to take care of the children. This is Vedic civilization. In the beginning a woman, childhood, she's trained up by the mother. Then as soon as she is married, formerly, child-marriage, so she's transferred to the care of mother-in-law. There she is trained up. Then she becomes very good housewife, takes care of household affairs, husband, children, and home becomes happy. What is this nonsense, divorce? There is no such thing in the Vedic civilization, divorce. You must accept whatever God has given you as husband or wife, you must. They had no thinking even, idea of divorce. One may not agree with the husband. That is natural. Sometimes we do not agree. But there is no question of divorce. When this divorce system was introduced?</p>
<p>Rūpānuga: Comparatively recent. Because for many years the Catholic Church forbade it. When did it begin?</p>
<p>Pradyumna: Henry the Eighth, the King of England.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Oh, he's the rascal.</p>
<p>Pradyumna: He had many wives, he wanted to divorce his wife and he could not under Catholic Church, so he started his own church, Church of England.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Because many wives were not allowed?</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: No, they had a system, one wife, but he got fed up with them. He chopped off the heads of two of them and then... It was considered a bit outrageous. So then he wanted to divorce and have another wife after the third or fourth one.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: So he used to cut them, the head?</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: Yes, two of them he did. And then the Catholic Church excommunicated him.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Therefore in Vedic civilization they keep, they have more than one wife. So what is the use of killing? Why one should kill? We find from the history, Dhruva Mahārāja's mother and stepmother, there were some critical words, and Dhruva Mahārāja became very, very angry. So the critical words and wives, different wives, that may be, but why one should cut off the head? Dhruva Mahārāja's mother said when Dhruva Mahārāja began to cry before the mother, mother said "My dear child, what can I do? How can I help you? Your father does not care for me, even as maidservant, what to speak of I am queen, I am the senior queen. So this gentleman does not care of me even as maidservant. How can I help you? If God helps you, then..." That was her statement. So that does not mean because the king did not like, she should be beheaded. What is this nonsense? If he is,(?)... may be... After all, he is king. He may not like first wife. Actually, there was no scarcity of comfort, but liking may not be, but that does not mean that she shouldn't be accepted as wife. Kings were allowed to marry more than one wife. Why to accept another wife means another wife should be killed? What is this? Everything nonsense. King can marry more than one wife. And at the time of marriage they were given so many woman. Because the woman population is greater than the man, always. So when the King is married, along with the queen, many other friends of the queen they would go with the king. They live in the same palace, same palace. Sometimes they had children, dāsī-putra. Just like Vidura. Vidura was not queen's son. One of these women friends. So that was allowed.</p>
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<div id="1977_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="sub_section" sec_index="10" parent="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" text="1977 Conversations and Morning Walks"><h3>1977 Conversations and Morning Walks</h3>
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<div id="RoomConversationJanuary51977Bombay_0" class="quote" parent="1977_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" book="Con" index="11" link="Room Conversation -- January 5, 1977, Bombay" link_text="Room Conversation -- January 5, 1977, Bombay">
<div class="heading">Woman infidel, they are stoned among the Muhammadans. Christian also. "You have done..." Woman proved unchaste, she was punished. Is it not?
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:Room Conversation -- January 5, 1977, Bombay|Room Conversation -- January 5, 1977, Bombay]]: </span><div class="text"><p style="display: inline;">Hari-śauri: Even in the West, the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't allow divorce. The Church of England was started on that because Henry VIII didn't like his wife, and he wanted to divorce, and the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't let him. So then he did do, so they excommunicated him. So then he started his own church and made up his own laws. Otherwise, now there's a big push in Italy for divorce and everything, but even in the last ten years there's been no divorce. They don't allow it. And chastity of the woman was still very greatly appreciated too.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Woman infidel, they are stoned among the Muhammadans. Christian also. "You have done..." Woman proved unchaste, she was punished. Is it not? The public would stone and kill. You know that punishment? Stoning?</p>
<p>Hari-śauri: Stoning, yes. It's mentioned a lot in early Christian times. They used to stone.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Everyone will throw a stone. Very tortuous death, stoning.</p>
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<div id="EveningConversationJanuary251977Puri_1" class="quote" parent="1977_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" book="Con" index="54" link="Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri" link_text="Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri">
<div class="heading">"Because he is rascal, therefore he's 'ex,' excommunicated. My Guru Mahārāja kicked him out, so what is the value of his word?"
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri|Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri]]: </span><div class="text"><p style="display: inline;">Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one thing they're doing against us more and more in the West is taking the testimony of an ex-disciple of yours, and he will say, "I was a Hare Kṛṣṇa..."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: "Because he is rascal, therefore he's 'ex,' excommunicated. My Guru Mahārāja kicked him out, so what is the value of his word?"</p>
<p>Gargamuni: We can say these men were excommunicated.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Ex means he's executed. That's all. He's finished.</p>
<p>Satsvarūpa: Why listen to his testimony? We can say, "Why listen to his testimony?"</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not take our testimony? We are... Now take.</p>
<p>Gargamuni: Even in the church they do that. If some priest is not following or introduces something new, they are excommunicated. So we have excommunicated him. Why he should be listened to?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: He's no more in this.</p>
<p>Gargamuni: That's legal. In the church they do that. Why we cannot do?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That is natural. Somebody will go out and speak against us.</p>
<p>Satsvarūpa: The demons are very eager to hear. "Oh, tell us what they did to you."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: (laughs) "That is not your business. You better ask because you have taken him as authority. You have already taken him as authority, the excommunicated member. So you ask him." These things will happen. In preaching, you cannot expect very smooth path going. Otherwise what is the use of preaching?</p>
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