Murder (Conversations)

Expressions researched:
"murder" |"murdered" |"murderer" |"murderer's" |"murderers" |"murdering" |"murderous" |"murders"

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- November 7, 1970, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Because you are responsible, if you cut throat of a goat, then you'll be responsible. Just like in your jurist(?) law, if you commit murder—you are lawyer—you have to be hanged. So, (Hindi) "...life for life." So I am killing one life. I shall not be liable to repay by my life.

Guest (4): But then why the Vedas allow us to eat the meat of goat and other animals?

Prabhupāda: That is to restrict. Just like government opens liquor shop. That does not mean government is encouraging to drink. Those who are drunkard, going create disturbance, for them there is little concession, but they are responsible. If they become drunkard and causes some disturbance in the street, then he will be arrested by the police. He cannot say, "Oh, I have paid for the bottle."

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Discussion with Indians -- January 18, 1971, Allahabad:

Prabhupāda: That is correct position. But if you find that "Swamiji is not on the standard," that means you are not in the posit..., sama-darśinaḥ even.

Guest (3): You mean if a person commits a murder, a sinner...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very high stage. That is very high stage, sama-darśinaḥ.

Guest (3): No, no. If a person commits a murder, you are seeing...

Prabhupāda: So why you see, you are seeing, "Commits murder?" Why don't you see that it is Kṛṣṇa is acting there? Why you say that "commits murder?"

Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa is getting the sin committed.

Prabhupāda: Sama-darśinaḥ means you have no distinction what is sin and what is...

Guest (1): Sama-darśinaḥ means to treat everyone as equal.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Sama darśinaḥ means there is no distinction between sin and virtue. That is sama-darśinaḥ. As soon as you see, "This is virtue, and this is sin," it is not sama-darśinaḥ.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Cheating is mixed up passion and ignorance. Just like one man cheats other. That means he wants to obtain something. He's passionate. But he commits some murder. He does not know that "I'll have to suffer for it." So it is a mixture of passion and ignorance.

Bob: And what about when somebody helps another person?

Prabhupāda: That is goodness.

Bob: Why is that goodness? What intelligence is that? I mean, is,... This represents knowledge of what? You said that goodness is when you have knowledge, intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: That is not conservative. Conservative means unnecessarily catching something. That is conservative. If you try to protect your life, will anyone say You are very conservative. I wanted to kill you, and you want to keep your life? Is that conservatism? Do you think?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No.

Prabhupāda: And if the murderer thinks that You are very conservative. I wanted to kill you and you did not allow. That is not conservative. That is self-preservation, that is not conservative. Conservative means unnecessarily you catch some rules and regulation without any meaning or without any utility. That is conservative. In Sanskrit it is called niyamāgraha. (end)

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- April 25, 1973, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: Anyone who does that is either criminal or insane.

Prabhupāda: Yes, insane. All criminality is done when one is insane. That is the definition of the Vedas. Everyone is criminal when he's insane. Sane man never commits any criminality. Just like when a, when a man commits murder, unless he becomes insane, he cannot commit murder.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So among the college students, among the college students it's very common that they say: "I don't care what is said." These people, students.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I want to, I want to follow my own aim and desire, my own morality. They say like that.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why don't you do that in case of your relationship to the state. Suppose the state says: "You must drive to the right." Why don't you drive on the left? Why do you obey the state laws? What does he say? You do whatever you like.

Morning Walk -- April 26, 1973, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: Sanātana Gosvāmī also asked that question to Caitanya Mahāprabhu...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, that is the question of human life, that: "I want to enjoy. Why there is obstruction of my enjoyment?" Then the next question will be then what I am and what is this nature? These are intelligent questions. That is called brahma-jijñāsā. Where shall I eat? Where shall I sleep? These are very minor questions. They are questions for animals. For the human being, this is the question, that "I want to enjoy life. Why there are so many obstructions?" This is human question. The animals, they do not question. They submit. Just like when you slay one animal, it submits. But a human being, there is law because human being is intelligent. So you cannot kill any other human being, you cannot murder. Then you'll be hanged. But they cannot make law. They're lower grade animals. They submit, somebody killing. But the objection is there, both by the human beings and the animals, that the: "Why you are killing me?" But he's helpless. The man has invented some means. So they have made their laws. But both of them are objecting.

Morning Walk -- May 1, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: They are trying to occupy more land but you will not allow. Therefore war, there is war. So we create problems. Otherwise God has supplied us enough. You can use it; as much as you like you can use what you have... They are creating trouble and the scientists giving them, "Yes, I am giving you this chemical composition. You drop on the enemies' camp." This is scientific research, to impel the rascals. (laughter) The rascals, rogues, they are trying to usurp other's property, and the scientists helping them. That's all. If you help one murderer, if you help one thief, then you also become criminal. Is it not? So they are helping one another, all these thieves and rogues. Therefore there is so much trouble in the world. They are all criminals. Stena eva sa ucyate (BG 3.12). One who does not recognize the proprietorship of the Lord, he is a thief. Find out, take statistics how many people recognizes God.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: These are the basic principle of sinful life. Other sinful activities come out of it. Just like illicit sex life. Illicit relationship of a man and woman, there may be many dangerous things. You see? So the basic principle is the illicit sex life. Now, it can go up to murdering and so many things. So if we avoid the basic principles, the further subsidiary sinful activities automatically stopped.

Father Tanner: But... I haven't remembered the four, but is one of those basic principles concerned with truth?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Tanner: Which one?

Prabhupāda: Because...

Father Tanner: Now, it was told... Now I've forgotten the four.

Prabhupāda: Because Veda, Veda means knowledge. Knowledge means truth. Unless you come to the knowledge of truth, your knowledge is not perfect.

Room Conversation with Lord Brockway -- July 23, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: And ignorance. If we give service in ignorance, without knowing what is what, that kind of service may lead us to become punished. So we must know what kind of service we shall give. So real suffering of the society, human society, or any society you take, real suffering is, because the living entity has forgotten God, so he is being punished in different way by the material nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). So many ways. But everyone is being punished. At least, the three kinds... Why three kinds? That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, that this is also punishment, repetition of birth and death. This is also punishment. Because we are eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). We are spirit soul, we are eternal. So our, this constant change of body, birth and death, that is also punishment. Because nobody wants to die. Because he is eternal. How he'll like to die? He wants to keep his eternal position, but he, because he's criminal... Just like one man is condemned to die, murderer.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Similarly hiṁsā, it is used for... Just like in Manu-saṁhitā it is said that the murderer should be hanged. So this is also hiṁsā, to get him a man hanged. But Manu-saṁhitā says that this kind of hiṁsā is necessary. Because the man who's committed murder, if he's hanged, then in this life all his sinful activities finished. Otherwise, in his next life he has to suffer so many things. So it is the duty of the king to take his life so that he may be relieved from other sinful reaction. So according to śāstra, hiṁsā..., ahiṁsā is good, but when there is necessity, hiṁsā is also good.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That so-called hiṁsā, when it is directed by Kṛṣṇa, is not hiṁsā.

Reporter: Yeah, exactly. I agree. That's, that's...

Prabhupāda: The same example as I gave, gave you. That when the king condemns a murderer to death, it is not hiṁsā. It is doing good to him.

Reporter: Yeah. But only if the king is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No... King is... King means a devotee. Because the king did not remain devotee, now monarchy is abolished. King means Kṛṣṇa's representative, nara-devatā. The king is supposed to act on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa's business is paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8).

Reporter: Yes, yes.

Morning Walk -- December 9, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prajāpati: Actually, it's very good for them to be killed by a devotee.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a murderer is to be killed. Then his sins out of this murdering will be counteracted. If he lives, then he has to suffer so many tribulations. Better let him be killed. Then everything's finished. Life for life. And if there are good leaders, then they will see that the cheating scientists, they're spoiling state money. They'll be stopped in their nefarious activities. They could not become successful in the moon expedition. Now they have made another plan. Venus... What is? Venus expedition?

Karandhara: Mars, Jupiter.

Hṛdayānanda: Mars.

Prabhupāda: Mars. You see? But the rascal government does not... You could not become successful about the moon expedition. Why you are asking money again?

Room Conversation with Latin Professor -- December 9, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So therefore, when one is God conscious, how he can kill another animal? He knows that "If I am killed, I feel pains and pleasure, pains, then why shall I kill him? And he's also son of God. I am also son of God. So God, how He can allow to kill another son?" Suppose a father has got ten sons. One is useless, cannot earn anything. If the earning son says, "Father, he is useless, let him... Let me kill him," the father will agree? No. Father is kind to everyone. So similarly, when one is God conscious, if he kills animal, that means he has no sense of God consciousness. He has no sense of God. That is the test. So our propaganda is that you make people God conscious. Then all good qualities will come. Instead of trying to qualify man in so many ways—"You don't become thief, you don't become murderer, you don't become this, don't become this, don't become intoxicant"—simply by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, he becomes everything, by one stroke. That is our propaganda, that if one becomes God conscious, then he is becoming perfect, not necessarily, materially and spiritually, both. And that is happening practically. Now these boys, these girls, they are Europeans, Americans. They were accustomed to so many bad habits and according to our standard, and now they have given up.

Morning Walk -- December 15, 1973, Los Angeles:

Karandhara: Yes. Or it's like a criminal. If he commits a crime, it's nice that he laments, but he can't just lament. He has to start working positively.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he must go to the state and offer, "Please kill me." Then state may consider. "I have committed this murder, so the law is: I must give my life. So I am prepared." Then immediately he will be excused. Yes. (break)

Karandhara: ...a devotee came and told Prabhupāda that he committed some wrong doing, and he was very, very sorry, and he was crying and very sorry, and you said, "That's all right. That's nice. Now do something about it. Engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa's service."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. That is the duty of the physician. If somebody comes, patient: "Sir, I am suffering like this." "All right, don't be sorry. Sit down. I will give you medicine."

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is just like the concept that if God is all-merciful, why He is so impartial, somebody making happy, somebody making suffering?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is mercifulness. Just like when doctor says, "You don't take anything today. You fast," that is mercy. That is mercy. It is good for him. By starving, he will be cured. That is mercy. And according to Manu-saṁhitā, when a man is hanged, that is mercy. If he is hanged... He has committed murder. He should be hanged so all his sinful reaction finished. Otherwise next birth, he has to suffer. He has to be killed by somebody else.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the tendency is that the sufferer wants to complain.

Prabhupāda: No, that they will complain. Just like when a man is ordered to be hanged, he will complain, "Just see the police, judge. He has ordered me to be hanged." That complaint will go on. Just like a child. When the doctor says, "Don't eat anything." He will complain. He will cry, "Why doctor says like that?" But it has to be done.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1973, Los Angeles:

Karandhara: Well, why? If we are attacked, then we must deserve it.

Prabhupāda: No, it may be that somebody is attacking even you do not deserve. So therefore you have got intelligence. You have got hands. You must try to protect. Just like one man is destined to be hanged, but still, he appoints a lawyer and tries to save him. He knows that "I have committed murder, I must be hanged."

Rūpānuga: And then God sanctions the judge. The judge can kill.

Karandhara: Well, that is why they say we must work to help poor people and starving people.

Prabhupāda: Why poor people? You starve. You are already yourself a poor people. How you can help them?

Karandhara: No, they say if we find poor and starving people, we must go and feed them.

Prabhupāda: So you feed them. But we also feed them. But we feed them with Kṛṣṇa prasādam. That is the difference. You do this. That will be actually beneficial. By distributing Kṛṣṇa's prasādam, you will be benefited, they will be benefited.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 12, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prajāpati: But like you were mentioning this morning in class, how they are cheaters. They simply say they are lawyers, but instead they are breaking the law.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nowadays, big lawyer means who can tactfully break the law. That is good lawyer. They will find out some flaw in the law and win the case. A man has committed murder, everyone knows, and if a lawyer can save him, then he is a good lawyer. How to nullify the law, he is a good lawyer.

Umāpati: We find that our administration and our government is composed of about fifty or sixty per cent lawyers.

Prabhupāda: Like Nixon.

Umāpati: Yes. Pretty much so like Nixon.

Prabhupāda: What is the position of Nixon now?

Umāpati: He's getting more popular.

Prabhupāda: How?

Umāpati: Well, he couldn't get any less popular. So now nothing's happened. So he is the only one available. So he is getting more popular. People forget.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is the... That is your alpa-medhasaḥ. You cannot understand. What I'm speaking you do not understand.

Indian man (3): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: He... That example I'm giving, that the law is that the murderer should be hanged. If you fight, "I don't care for this law, because you are hanging one person," that will be contempt of court. You may not like, but the law is there. You cannot condemn the law. That is my point. That is my point.

Indian man (4): My point is no meat-eating by Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: You, you... You do not like that anyone should be condemned to death...

Dr. Patel: That, that's all right.

Prabhupāda: ...but for that reason you cannot condemn the law.

Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad:

Satsvarūpa: The main thing they usually say is that kill means murder. That man at Bhaktivedanta Manor, that priest, he said the original Hebrew, the word means "murder." So this is an instruction to mankind not to murder, but it is not... But they have other places in the scripture where they point out that the animal is allowed for man to eat. So they just were showing us their scriptures.

Prabhupāda: It is said, "It is murder."

Satsvarūpa: Yes, that "Thou shalt not murder." That it has been changed to "kill."

Prabhupāda: Originally it was murder?

Satsvarūpa: That is what that priest said to you in Bhaktivedanta Manor.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, he may say. What was previously, we are not concerned. But you have left already this Jewish Old Testament. You have got New Testament. You are not Jewish. So why do you bring that Jewish for your defense? You have already rejected it.

Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: The question is the Old Testament, you say that there was the word "murder." Why you have changed? You accept Old Testament or reject?

Satsvarūpa: Accept the statement should be "murder."

Prabhupāda: But why it is "kill"?

Pañcadraviḍa: Wrong translation.

Prabhupāda: Wrong translation.

Pañcadraviḍa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They are fools, all set of fools. Useless. See one thing and write one thing. Then you are not perfect. Bhrama pramāda. You commit mistake. Therefore your instruction is useless, useless. Because you commit mistake, therefore your instruction is useless. And that actually they are doing. As it is suitable, they are changing the words of Bible. They are useless. Things which are changeable, that cannot be accepted as scripture. Scriptural injunction means you cannot change. Just like we accept the Vedic scripture but don't change it. That example I have given many times. Because Lord Buddha wanted to change Vedic literature, therefore he is rejected. Although Lord Buddha is so... We worship him as incarnation of..., but he was rejected. You cannot change. Immediately you are rejected.

Morning Walk -- June 6, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Everyone has choice. Everyone has choice. Choice, but under the control. Exactly like that. By your choice, you go to the prison house. By your choice, you go to the university. There is supreme control, government. But it is your choice, whether you want to live in the prison or in the university. that is your choice. Government does not say that "Oh, this man will come to the university, and this man will go to the prison house." No. You make your choice, you work according to that, and government sends you either to the prison or to the university. You cannot say... One man is condemned to be killed for murdering, another man is rewarded some prize, you cannot say government is partial. You have made your choice, and government is giving you the result. (pause) Once you make your choice to steal, then you are under prison house. Immediately.

Room Conversation with Pater Emmanuel (A Benedictine Monk) -- June 22, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: Why they understand like that? That means that Lord Christ was not sufficiently educated to use the right word, "murder"? Does it mean so? There are two words, killing and murder. Murder is especially meant for the human being. So do you think that Christ was not learned enough to use the word murder instead of "killing"? "Killing" means any kind of killing, especially animal killing. Otherwise you should have frankly openly used the word, "Thou shall not murder." Even if it is meant like that, so does it mean that he was preaching amongst the murderers? They are very first-class men? They are all murderers? Therefore the injunction. This kind of interpretation does not appeal to us. (German)

German devotee: He said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this commandment, "Thou shall not kill," is found in the Old Testament, and when Jesus was talking...

Prabhupāda: I do not know many testament, but I see in the Ten Commandments these words are there. If you want to support it by many testaments, that is, of course, your business, but we take the direct meaning, "Thou shall not kill"—the Christians should not kill. Interpretation you can give in your own way to support your business, but we see openly. If we can understand openly, there is no need of interpretation.

Room Conversation with Pater Emmanuel (A Benedictine Monk) -- June 22, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: So we offer Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants: "Give me this foodstuff," so we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and we take it. Therefore, if for killing this patraṁ puṣpam there is sin, that is Kṛṣṇa's sin, not my sin. (German) But Kṛṣṇa, God, apāpa-viddham, sinful reaction cannot take place to Him. Apāpa-viddham. Pāpa means sinful. Just like the sun is powerful. It can absorb urine, but you cannot drink urine. (German) So the injunction is tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). One who is very powerful... Just like a king. He orders, "Kill this man. Murder." He commits murder regularly, chopped up. But he is not under the law, being hanged, because he is very powerful. But an ordinary man, if he commits murder, he will be hanged. When there is fight the commander in chief says, "You kill them," and the soldier kills and he gets gold medal. But the same soldier, when he kills a single person at home, he is hanged. Therefore this injunction, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), "This vegetables give Me. I shall eat, and you take the prasādam." So we are not sinful.

Morning Walk -- July 9, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Now if they say that the killing means murdering, that means the people amongst whom Christ was preaching, they were accustomed to kill men. So what class of men they were? What was the society? A society of murderers. So what they will understand about religion, a murderer? (pause) So go further or return?

Jayatīrtha: We should probably turn around now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause) If you're preaching honesty to a thief, you have to be careful that he's not stealing your watch in the meantime.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: If you're preaching honesty to a thief, he may steal your watch. So Jesus was trying to teach religion to murderers, so they murdered him.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye. (aside:) Don't come very near. If you advise rascals, they'll be angry. No good result. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye, payaḥ-pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam. So we have to become very strong preacher. Then this movement will stay. If you simply take the temple worship, it will not stay very long.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: The machine... Just like I push certain button, it acts in a certain way. I push another button it acts in another way. Just like computer machine. It is a very complicated machine, but it does not act automatically. One man who knows, he puts the button and it acts.

Young man: If the laws of nature are the laws of God, then how is it that sometimes they're even crueler than the actions..., they are more violent than the actions which ordinary men do, than that of a tyrant or a murderer?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Rules, God rules, are perfect, and it is being perfectly done. Sometimes we misunderstand.

Young man: Then how do we take the meaning of earthquakes and natural disasters which could destroy the lives of pure people as well as impure people?

Prabhupāda: No, every life is pure. The body is pure and impure. So anyway, after destruction, the life is not destroyed. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The destruction of body does not mean that the soul is destroyed. No. He gets another body. The body is... one body is destroyed, and he transmigrates to another body. And so far your question about the earthquake, so suppose if there is plane crash, there are many good men, bad men, so everyone is crashed. But the good man gets a good body again; the bad man gets a bad body again.

Morning Walk -- May 9, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: How degraded the human society is becoming. And the children, they are discussing.

Amogha: It seems that step by step, in the law courts and the judges, everyone is step by step accepting more and more degradation, and makind it legal, everything.

Jayadharma: Even when a man commits first-degree murder he only gets ten years' jail. There are cases of people committing cold-blooded murder and only getting ten years' jail. And then after that, getting out again and doing the same thing.

Paramahaṁsa: They think that "This poor man was psychologically disturbed and killed someone." So they give him ten years in jail, then they say, "Now he is rehabilitated, he has been very nice, and in the prison he was acting very nicely, so we want him to be happy. So we'll let him out on parole as long as he's good." Then they let him out.

Room Conversation with Carol Cameron -- May 9, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very difficult.

Paramahaṁsa: People..., I've talked to professors who know the original Hebrew and the original tongues that the Bible was written in. They say that is has changed so much that you can hardly...

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are changing. Just like he said, "Thou shall not kill." They are now changing, "Thow shall not commit murder." They are doing that.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. They have a modern Bible, using all modern terminology.

Prabhupāda: So, when you change, then the authority is lost. Just like in our society, sometimes they do something nonsense and they say, "Prabhupāda said." (laughter) They are doing that. We know that. It is deteriorated like that. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ kaunteya: "And in due course of time, this yoga was lost. Therefore I am repeating the same thing, old philosophy to you." So it requires like that.

Morning Walk -- May 11, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Why you should interpret upon Kṛṣṇa's word? If you have got your own philosophy, you write another book. Why do you touch Bhagavad-gītā? This is their cheating. Bhagavad-gītā is a popular book. Gandhi also took Bhagavad-gītā for his political diplomacy. This is going on. And they'll never agree to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. They'll never agree. The other day I was there in Kurukṣetra. They have got their own plan-mānava-dharma, this dharma, that dharma. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: (BG 18.66) "You give up all these. Kick out all this so-called rascaldom. You just surrender unto Me." That they will not do. Except this, everything which is going on in the name of religion, that is cheating. Everyone is misinterpret... Just like Christians, they have misinterpreted: "Kill means murder. It is meant for man." That means they are making their own lusty desires fulfilled in the name of Bible, that's all. Everyone is doing like that. They are changing. Mass opinion is now homosex. They are passing abortion. They are passing... What is this? This is their business. For fulfillment of their lusty desires and greediness, they are bringing the authority of Bible, Bhagavad-gītā. This is going on in the name of religion.

Room Coversation with Psychiatrist and Indian Boy -- May 12, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: He says he just wished to meet you. Perhaps I should read a verse. Should I read a verse?

Prabhupāda: No. Our viewpoint is that in the material world, who has accepted this material body—anyone, but we specially take the human society—they require treatment, everyone. Everyone is mentally diseased, and therefore he is unhappy. Everyone. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād-guṇa (SB 5.18.12). Anyone who has no sense of God consciousness, he is diseased mentally. He requires treatment. The whole human society, especially at the present moment, they have given up God consciousness. They are not interested. That is their disease. And everyone requires treatment. So the whole Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the mass treatment of the materialistic persons who are mentally diseased. That is our proposition. It is... In India there was a case. A man committed murder, and he pleaded in the court that... His pleader, his lawyer, pleaded that he was mad at that time. We also accept unless one becomes mad, one cannot commit murder or suicide. So the civil surgeon was brought to give evidence whether this man is actually mad. The civil surgeon said that "So far my experience is concerned—I have treated so many persons—in my opinion everyone is mad. So if on account of madness one should be excused from the law, then it is Your Honor's discretion, but so far I have studied, more or less, everyone is mad."

Morning Walk -- May 15, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: We can teach people how to live with their problems and at the same time learn how to minimize them through technology.

Prabhupāda: No, because you have got so many facilities to teach people that "You become patient, you become criminal, and you live comfortably." That is very nice, "You become criminal, go to the jail and live very comfortably." "You become diseased, go to the hospital and live comfortably." That is very easy.

Paramahaṁsa: But see, they can't cause any trouble in the jail. That is the advantage. Therefore everyone is comfortable because they see that the murderers are locked up and they can't do any harm. Therefore everyone is feeling safe. And in a hospital people, similarly, they have some disease. They can't... Like in India, the beggars on the street, they should all be in hospitals, whereas in the foreign countries all those type of people are all in hospitals, taken care of.

Prabhupāda: Then why hippies are lying on the street?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, that is voluntary.

Prabhupāda: So, one side, you make arrangement for patient; another side, they voluntarily suffer. Then what you can...

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Guest 3: It's the indirect way because God wants people to be happy. Now, if you can help people, if you can help people as people, surely that means that you must be pleasing God.

Prabhupāda: No, first of all... Suppose you are a lawyer, and some man has committed murder, and he wants your help. And suppose by your legal tricks you save him. So that will not please God. (laughter)

Guest 3: You've got a different consideration here.

Guest 2: You've got a lot of places and names for that.

Guest 3: We've got a different consideration here, you see, because the law that we have is very different from God's law. And I think that... (break)

Prabhupāda: You must accept God's law, not the people's law.

Guest 1: Well, the problem is that we're confined by the state law here just as the boys with the flowers. Now, maybe in Kṛṣṇa's law they did nothing wrong, but they were still subjected to being taken away like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but he saved them. He saved them.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Guest 1: What happens in the situation where somebody has committed a murder?

Guest 3: Nothing. It's... Look...

Guest 1: It's a matter of church conscience.

Guest 3: It's nothing. It's got nothing to do... I'm not there to judge...

Guest 1: This was the example given.

Guest 3: I'm not there to judge. All I'm there to do is to do a job. Someone else has got the unfortunate task of having to judge people. I don't have to do that, so I don't decide.

Prabhupāda: No, we can judge from the standard laws. India still, if one has very good garden and flowers, if somebody goes, "Sir, I want to take some flowers from your garden for worshiping God," "Yes, you can take." They will be very glad.

Morning Walk -- May 23, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Human being comes to perfection when he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. So gradually they would have to come. Just like the bud of rose flower. When it is bud it is not so useful. When it fructifies, becomes a blossomed rose, then it is useful. Similarly, human being in other stages of life they are like buds. When they come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness then they are blossomed flower.

Hari-śauri: But if they're committing so many sinful activities, murdering their father and like this, then how will they get to that stage of being able to approach Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: No, it will be checked. It will be checked. Just like if there is some worm in the bud, then the growing will be checked.

Śrutakīrti: Are the lower human species responsible for sinful activities?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. As soon as one is human being, he is responsible. Just like your state laws. Suppose a aborigine comes and does something criminal, will he be excused? Animal may be excused, but the man will not be excused.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Vegetable has also life but we are not killing. When you pluck out the flower, the tree is not killed. When you take a fruit, the tree is not killed. When you take grains, automatically they die. Then you take the grains. There is no question of killing. But even it is killing, it is not as murderous as killing a cow. Why the state hangs a man when he kills a man? The man can plead that "So many animals are being killed every day. If I kill one man, what is the wrong there?" The punishment is that "You have killed one important animal." Therefore the Bhaga..., kṛṣi-go-rakṣya, that cow should be protected because it is a very, very, important animal. It does not say, "Other animal." Or does not say, "All animals." He said, "Cows," because important. It's supplying you milk, so important food. She is your mother and you are killing mother? Is that your civilization? Killing mother? "Mother is old, and mother is no more supplying milk. Kill." Is there any such sanction? Rather, old mother is given more protection. And what is this civilization, killing the mother? In the morning we require milk immediately, and the mother cow is supplying. And when she cannot supply, kill her. What is this philosophy?

Morning Walk -- June 26, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Black and white?

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Negroes are envious of the white men.

Jayatīrtha: Yes. In Detroit every year one out of every five hundred people is murdered.

Prabhupāda: White man?

Jayatīrtha: White men and black men. Usually black men are murdering.

Prabhupāda: What is the reason? The same feeling as in India, Hindu Muslim. But it is not so strong.

Brahmānanda: No. (end)

Morning Walk -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Center variety is crime.

Jayatīrtha: (laughs) That's becoming very popular.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: In Time magazine they say that by the time the child is fifteen years old he will have seen eleven thousand murders on television.

Jayatīrtha: In Detroit one out of every thousand people gets murdered every year.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Jayatīrtha: In Detroit—that's the biggest crime city in America—one out of every thousand people gets murdered every year. If you live there for fifty years, you have one chance in twenty of being murdered. (break)

Prabhupāda: Prosperous. The business is slaughterhouse. All butchers. (laughs)

Room Conversation with Lt. Mozee, Policeman -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: And I have known many instances. In Calcutta one very rich man's son in the evening he would take his bath and dress nicely, and he would go to the Howrah station and beg, cheat men: "I have lost my purse. Will you kindly help me?" And any gentleman: "He has lost..." And he will go to the restaurant and eat and go home. That was his habit. He was a very rich man, but his habit was this. So we have to change the habit by changing the heart. You know very well. Many thieves, they have committed many times theft and put into the jail. So he knows that "If I commit theft, I will go to the jail." He has practically seen it, and he knows it. Still, he steals. Why? Because heart is unclean. So this process will cleanse the heart. Unless he cleans the heart, you cannot stop criminality simply by laws. Laws are already known. The professional thief, he knows the law. The professional murderer, he knows the law. But still, he commits because heart is unclean. And our process, to cleanse the heart. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), it is Sanskrit, "Cleansing the heart." Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam, "Then all the troubles of this material world will be solved."

Morning Walk -- July 10, 1975, Chicago:

Jayatīrtha: ...that half of the people are disqualified already because they're women. It's not so bad.

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not bad. It is good. Now our policy should be that at Dallas we shall create first-class men, and we shall teach the girls two things. One thing is how to become chaste and faithful to their husband and how to cook nicely. If these two qualifications they have, I will take guarantee to get for them good husband. I'll personally... Yes. These two qualifications required. She must learn how to prepare first-class foodstuff, and she must learn how to become chaste and faithful to the husband. Only these two qualification required. Then her life is successful. So try to do that. (Car doors open, walk begins) Ordinary education is sufficient, ABCD. This is all nonsense, so big, big, sound education and later on become a prostitute. What is this education? (laughter) To make them prostitute, it doesn't require education. (break) Yesterday we saw in the television how these rascals are wasting time, talking nonsense. There was nothing, valuable talk. Foot... No, no, hand... What is that? Handprint? And the addicted murder? That was the case? (break) Within two weeks, two divorces.

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: They have got homosex? Dogs, hogs, I don't think.

Bahulāśva: Yeah, dogs, they say. We were preaching in this one convention that the dogs are also fighting. So therefore fighting and murder should be legal too because the dogs do that also.

Brahmānanda: Their argument was because the dogs have homosex, therefore the man should have...?

Bahulāśva: Should have homosex.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes, if an animal does it, then a human being should have the same right to do it also.

Jayatīrtha: Then they can pass stool in the street also?

Prabhupāda: Then what is the difference between man and animal? They do not find any difference?

Bahulāśva: No.

Prabhupāda: Then why they find difference in having soul?

Car ride from Durban to Johannesburg -- October 13, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: She was paid for that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it facilitated our preaching work. At first, I was against the idea, but I found it was good.

Prabhupāda: No, it was not good to give, keep young unmarried girl.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: She is married with children. She is older. Her husband was murdered.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, in Johannesburg. We didn't pick any young African girl, older lady and very respectful, honest. She's about fifty years old.

Prabhupāda: That is all right.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Her husband was walking home one day, and African killed him.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just for money. (end)

Morning Walk -- December 17, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: The country is already murdered. What are you talking of murder now?

Man: I don't want to talk of these things. (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: They have gone mad now, sir. Actually they have ransacked the morality of this land, and they are going to ransack the social conditions. (Hindi) I have got one rifle, one revolver and one pistol. I am keeping always with me now. (Hindi) These people, sir, have really ruined this, this batch of rulers.

Prabhupāda: That is everywhere.

Dr. Patel: Sadar Patel by (indistinct). He was a man of practice. He could have...

Prabhupāda: But who will live? Everyone will die.

Dr. Patel: Everyone will die, that's right. These people, they behave as if they are living permanently. Then they are doing a bad thing, they think that they are...

Prabhupāda: So we have to tolerate. There is no other way.

Morning Walk -- December 23, 1975, Bombay:

Kīrtanānanda: Of course, Śrīla Prabhupāda, does one have to give protection to their devotee if they break the law? Just like if you have a child, and he murders someone, isn't he supposed to be punished? So if someone goes against the Supreme Personality of Godhead, even if you are a devotee, shouldn't Śiva concur?

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is another thing. This proposal, that because Lord Rāmacandra approached Lord Śiva to kill Rāvaṇa, and he gave permission, although Rāvaṇa was his great devotee. Then what is the use of becoming devotee of Lord Śiva? He gives permission. Huh? Is that very reasonable proposal? If I ask your permission that I shall kill your son, will you give permission? No. Then? So Lord Śiva gives permission to Lord Rāmacandra, "Yes, You can kill Rāvaṇa," then what is the use of becoming his devotee?

Harikeśa: I think Dr. Patel would say that it's not fair, you have fired the opposition.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Harikeśa: It's not fair. You have completely destroyed the opposition. (Prabhupāda laughs) There is no question of fight.

Prabhupāda: The actual fact is that Lord Śiva did not give permission, but he did not go to protect Rāvaṇa, because he knew that it was impossible to give him protection. That is summarized in Bengali, rākhe kṛṣṇa māre ke, māre kṛṣṇa rākhe ke. If Kṛṣṇa kills somebody, wants to kill somebody, nobody can give him protection. That is the conclusion. And if Kṛṣṇa protects somebody, nobody can kill him. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Huh? He was protected by Lord Nṛsiṁha-deva. Who can kill?

Morning Walk -- December 23, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Lokanātha: ...the ātmā is just the non-doer. Ātmā doesn't do anything.

Prabhupāda: No, no. He has put himself to the shelter of material nature. As soon as you come to India or you come to some other country, you must be under the laws of that country. So why do you come here? Kṛṣṇa bhuliyā jīva bhagavān sa kari. You have come to the material world to enjoy, so you must suffer also.

Kīrtanānanda: We've seen the example used, Prabhupāda, that just like a man, if he goes to sleep at night and he dreams that he has committed some murder or some...

Prabhupāda: So why does he dream?

Kīrtanānanda: ...he enjoys or suffers the activities, but actually he is...

Prabhupāda: Yes, but why he dreams like that? One is dreaming like that, another is dreaming a different way. That is due to his practice. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 8, 1976, Nellore:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So similarly, why can't we offer meat? He doesn't say, "Don't offer me meat."

Prabhupāda: Hm. Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the Bhagavad-gītā it doesn't say you can't offer Kṛṣṇa meat.

Prabhupāda: So if you like, you can do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't want to.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) What directly He says, you have to take. And if you interpret, that can be interpreted.

Acyutānanda: They have rewritten the Bible, "Thou shalt not murder."

Prabhupāda: (break) ...can be used as paper weight. (laughter) (break) ...use anything for Kṛṣṇa.

Yaśodānandana: ...temples they are worshiping this Dvārakā-śilā with the śalagrāma-śilā.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but we have no such instruction. (end)

Room Conversation -- January 8, 1976, Nellore:

Prabhupāda: This is our...

Acyutānanda: ...so he has attacked. He has taken vengeance on this.

Prabhupāda: That they are doing. Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water. They have no philosophy and they violate everything, what is stated there in Bible. Now you say that "Thou shall not kill;" they say, "Thou shall not murder." They are molding. Now this homosex they are sanctioning, man-to-man marriage. They are sanctioning abortion.

Acyutānanda: Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Is that religion?

Morning Walk -- June 5, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Gundan camas kapalethabada...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was one girl that had some disease, she was unconscious for how long? A year and a half?

Rāmeśvara: She was, practically speaking, dead, but by artificial means, they kept the heart pumping.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For one and a half years.

Rāmeśvara: And they thought that "If I pull out the electrical plug on this machine, then it will be murder." She was already dead, and the doctors fixed this machine to keep her heart.... Now they were afraid of pull out the plug.

Prabhupāda: Not dead. Not dead. Dead cannot be continued by electricity. That is not possible.

Hari-śauri: Spirit soul was still there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The soul was still there, but not in that condition.

Rāmeśvara: So then there was no movement, no thinking, everything was...

Prabhupāda: Unconscious, that may be.

Room Conversation -- June 18, 1976, Toronto:

Prabhupāda: Paramour. And the boy, he was ten years or twelve years old, he could understand: "Who is this man?" So he protested and said, "I shall tell all these things to my father." And he was killed.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The boy was killed?

Prabhupāda: By the mother.

Hari-śauri: She murdered him?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Killed means given poison. And the father, that is, my Godbrother, seeing this, he also took poison. This is the end of Gauḍīya Maṭha scandal. He was also one of the trustees. This Tīrtha Mahārāja was a trustee, and another Godbrother and this man. In the beginning, they were made trustees. In the beginning, Prabhupāda was to undergo surgical operation. So he was a little nervous, that "I may die." So he made a scrap paper, that "In case I die, these three disciples will be trustees of the Gauḍīya Maṭha Institute." That's all. So this Kuñja Bābu kept this. There are many long histories. So one of the so-called trustees was this Vāsudeva. So he died, his end was like this.

Interview with Newsweek -- July 14, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: That you have to consult śāstra. There is direction. It is... Practically it is the same. Just like Manu-saṁhitā, it says that if one is a murderer then he should be killed. Life for life. He should be hanged. That is the old system. The king used to kill a murderer. So that is almost the same punishment.

Rāmeśvara: What Prabhupāda said is that you have to consult the ancient law books which were written, which are part of Indian culture, thousands of years ago.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Part of the Vedic scriptures.

Rāmeśvara: They are our lawbook. Just like we have books of philosophy, there are also books of law, how to govern society, how to deal with criminals. In other words, we are sticking to the Vedic literatures. As they instruct, we are following.

Interviewer: What do the Vedic literatures say about adultery?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about adultery, Prabhupāda? She wants to know what the Vedas say should be the... What is the reaction for adultery? How does one deal with an adulterer? If someone is an adulterer and he's caught, what should be the...

Prabhupāda: No, there is no such direct punishment, but it is prohibited. It is prohibited.

Conversation with George Harrison -- July 26, 1976, London:

Jayatīrtha: Valmiki was a murderer, or a dacoit, thief. So he was met by Nārada Muni, I think.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Valmiki.

Jayatīrtha: And he was advised by Nārada Muni to please chant the holy name of the Lord and give up this thievery. So he wouldn't. So instead Nārada Muni said, "You chant mara." Mara means death. So he agreed.

Prabhupāda: Maramara, rāma.

Jayatīrtha: Later on, this Valmiki, he wrote the Rāmāyaṇa after having chanting rāma, mara, he became purified.

Hari-śauri: Transcendental trickery.

Jayatīrtha: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (end)

Evening Darsan -- August 10, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: Eh? You cannot, if you have own design, don't touch Bhagavad-gītā. You make your own design and preach otherwise. Why you take advantage of the Bhagavad-gītā? This is criminal. If you have got a different philosophy, you preach. Everyone has got the right. But why you misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā? When you take advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad-gītā and you speak nonsense, that is not good. That has murdered the whole thing. And practically we see that. Bhagavad-gītā as it is, you try to understand, you get the benefit and you life is successful. Besides that, interpretation when it is required. When things are understood directly, there is no question of interpretation. The law of interpretation is like this: when the things are not distinct, then you can interpret in your own way, I can interpret in my own way, but when the things are distinct, there is no question of interpretation.

Mrs. Sahani: If that's so, then we don't understand because we don't want to understand.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the folly. You don't want to understand.

Room Conversation -- September 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: This practice is there in Vedic system. Not Vedic system, (indistinct), fall down. There is technical name. Fall down from the mountain. This is easier than other type of suicide. Because you simply once jump, but as soon as you fall, you forget everything. Suicide itself is very bad. This fall down, serotan (?) it is called.

Akṣayānanda: So one question I wanted to ask you in this connection, is that this Vinobha, fasting until death, until cow slaughter is stopped. So if he dies then he is guilty of murder. Is it correct. And if he's a brāhmaṇa, he is guilty of brahma-hatya. So by this fasting he is committing a greater sin than the actual killing of the cows.

Prabhupāda: You are right.

Akṣayānanda: And what is the gain?

Prabhupāda: And what he'll get it? Does he think that by his dying of starvation this cow-killing will be stopped? That is his foolishness.

Akṣayānanda: He will die and it will go on.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his foolishness.

Garden Conversation -- September 7, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is nice. Very good.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "Point two. Blitz And now it's ISKCON-MRA-Anand Marg..." Just for your information Prabhupāda, MRA and Anand Marg were banned organizations for murders...

Prabhupāda: MRA also?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it is banned now.

Room Conversation on Farm Management -- December 10, 1976, Hyderabad:

Mahāṁśa: Some people I know, they said that yesterday the prasādam was not nice, and there was...

Prabhupāda: Not nice, it is not eatable even by the dogs. But you are less than the dogs if you (prepare) such thing. I was surprised. You allowed a sweeper to cook. I was surprised. We have distribution prasādam, not dog's food. Such rascals as here. You do not know. I do not wish to discuss anymore on this point. You have murdered the whole thing in two days. Now if possible, bring them, bring them first class prasādam, very palatable. Foodstuff means even one has no appetite he'll eat. That is food. Not that even one has got appetite, he'll forget. That is not food. So do like that and for money produce, use cane, sugar cane, rice. We shall spend for that. Don't spoil money, but do like businessman. He invests money, he gets a return. Spend it for Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. There is no question of becoming a miser. I never did it. When I have got that farthing, I want to spend it. Immediately spend. Oh, what I have made this BBT? Immediately 50% for printing, and 50% for spreading this. (indistinct) and understand what I want to do. So whatever is done is done, now do it very nicely. I want to see at least 1,000 men coming from the villages. There are 20,000 men here, you cannot attract them?

Morning Walk -- December 25, 1976, Bombay:

Guest (1): But that you have said, that one of his colleague or assistant told to Gandhi that "There is danger, and you shouldn't go to the meeting," and in spite of that...

Prabhupāda: No, no, I did not say. I wrote one letter to Gandhi that, "Mahatmaji, you have got some respectability throughout the whole world. Now you struggled for so-called svarāja. Now you have got it. Better retire from this life and preach Bhagavad-gītā."

Guest (1): I think he listened to your advice because before he was murdered, on that day...

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Otherwise you'll meet the fate of Mussolini."

Guest (2): And what was his reply?

Prabhupāda: He did not reply.

Guest (1): He drafted that statement that Congress should be dissolved. It should be.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He was implicated. This is māyā, that although he got svarāja, he was not free. He was full of anxiety, and he he was not at all... (aside:) Ayi. Jaya. So long one is absorbed in material thoughts, he'll be full of anxieties.

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India:

Prabhupāda: Well, physical, mental... That's right. You are so intelligent that you make distinction between physical and mental. They're all manifestation(?). You are so intelligent. Without mental, is there any physical? Then why you engage psychologist? There may be physical madman. Why you take him at psychologist? Why? Now you're discriminating mental and physical. If mental has nothing to do with physical, then why you employ psychologist to cure a madman from physical violence? You are so fool. Without mental pain, there is no physical pain. Without mental derangement, there is no physical disturbance. Who commits suicide? Who commits murder unless he's mentally deranged? You are very intelligent, that you want to make differentiation between physical and mental. There is differentiation. But cure physically.(?) Naturally they'll become sound. Otherwise why so many psychologists, psychiatrists, are employed in your country?

Rāmeśvara: It is a booming business, big business.

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Gargamuni: 'Cause still there is fifteen million Hindus in Bangladesh.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: When I was there, there were many doctors and lawyers, and I think all of them have been murdered. I think the only Hindus that are left are the poor people. But while I was there the teachers and the lawyers... The most prominent lawyer was Hindu. Doctors, all educated men.

Prabhupāda: Dead.

Gargamuni: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just see the policy.

Gargamuni: But they, I think annihilated all of the... Anyone who had any education... Just like that boy. He was translating your books? They shot him in front of firing squad. One boy. I printed one book there in Bengali, I think, three thousand copies: The Peace Formula and Who is Crazy, I think. It was about fifteen pages. They gave me some donation. Even the Gopāla... His name was Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Brahmacārī. He also gave me from his pocket. And I printed... We had it translated in Bengali, but then...

Prabhupāda: He was killed?

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Thieves, rogues and plunderers. That's all.

Hari-śauri: Detroit has the highest murder rate in the world, 'cause all the city population is black.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we could purchase that palace which costs six million dollars fifty years ago. And we have got for three hundred thousand. Why? Nobody was purchasing. Who will go to purchase there? I took it. "Yes it is..." I offered him... He was asking 350,000. So I told him, "I'll pay you cash, all three hundred." He immediately agreed. (laughs) I should have offered him less. He would have agreed. Nobody was purchasing.

Hari-śauri: Yes, we could have got it for half...

Prabhupāda: So he immediately agreed. Anyway, that's a very nice place. You have seen?

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Conversation During Massage -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Pakistan is finished, because the Bangladesh was supplying jute, rice, pan, great business.

Rāmeśvara: The government of Bangladesh was just murdered.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: They were all murdered.

Prabhupāda: It is due to this American CIA. Therefore I...

Rāmeśvara: Now they may again become lined up with Pakistan.

Prabhupāda: That is politics. Once you become strong; once I become... That is struggle. It will go on. You cannot stop.

Rāmeśvara: It's also commonly known that in the West the banks supplied money to Lenin to fight his revolution. They have no discrimination. If it seems like it is a good chance for making interest...

Prabhupāda: Therefore Hitler killed these Jews. They were financing against Germany. Otherwise he had no enmity with the Jews.

Room Conversation -- February 4, 1977, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: Therefore there are hippies. This is your culture hippies and murderer in the name of religion. This is their culture. And abortion. Because there is no such culture, therefore the result is the abortion and killing and bombing, making the whole atmosphere abominable. This is your culture. Fighting between Protestant and Catholics, and bombing... People are terrified. They cannot go out in the street. This is your culture. And begging is bad. To keep the people, whole population, in terrified condition, that is very good, and if anyone in a humble way begs, that is bad. This is your culture. Vedic way allows the brahmacārī to beg just to learn humbleness, not beggar. Coming from very big, big family all family, they practice it. This is not begging. This is to learn how to become humble and meek. And Christ said, "To the humble and meek, God is available." It is not begging. You do not know what is this culture. You have your own culture, devil's culture, to kill even one's own child. How you'll understand what is this culture? Am I right or wrong?

Satsvarūpa: You're right.

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Like Russia.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in some ways worse, because it is not at all stable. There's nothing set. It's just chaotic.

Brahmānanda: Open murders. They have squads going around and taking people and just...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shooting. Very dangerous.

Brahmānanda: Many prominent Argentine people are fleeing the country, going to Mexico and other places. So now they have just uncovered a big plot where the Argentines were sending assassins to other countries to kill the Argentine...

Prabhupāda: Refugees.

Brahmānanda: So they have just uncovered a list of names. It was put in the paper. The economy of Argentina is almost ninety percent on beef production, animal slaughter.

Hari-śauri: The biggest beef country in the world.

Prabhupāda: They eat beef only.

Room Conversation with Adi-kesava Swami -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Ādi-keśava: They're hired men. This is the case of one of their men who was later held for murder of another man. He was used in a deprogramming, and then later on, some months later, he murdered some man and went to jail for it. So they're very serious. It's not just philosophical arguments. There's a list here in this book we've made of the devotees in our movement who've been taken. This list is very recent, by temple. You can see in practically every temple they have taken some devotees, some who are..., most of them are back in our movement, but some who are not. But now their tactic is this legal thing. Now they get this legal conservatorship, and then even we go and save the devotee, we take them back, the police can come and arrest us. So in these cases we are finding that the only thing to do is sometimes to go and physically drag them away and hide them until the term of this thing is up. Another thing is we are giving, as we said yesterday, some asylum in other countries, like with Canada. And one thing is that the Indian government told me that they would give me asylum. The Ambassador told me that if I were to be held, the Indian government would give me asylum.

Prabhupāda: That is very good.

Room Conversation -- April 19, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: They should severe punishment. Then... We shall see.

Bhakti-caru: (Bengali?) "Ninety murders in one district."

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Bhakti-caru: Charan Singh (Hindi) "Ninety murders in one district. 'There was a constitutional breakdown in the states,' he said. The chief minister of Maratha states had admitted to him that his government's reach was no longer running the way it had done earlier. He was receiving many complaints from the U.P., Rajasthan, and Haryana. Fifty murders have been committed in one district in Bihar in one week. Mr. Charan Singh's statement, which was preceded by the (indistinct) meeting earlier in the morning, led to a spate of questions. He was asked whether he was going counter to the spirit of the federal structure which permitted different ruling parties and centers and states, whether the ruling party M.P. would be asked to resign if a state..., if the states they came from turned down his party government and whether the central government would not invoke the power of an article which stated by the Constitution despite capitalism in the Janata party election manifesto."

Prabhupāda: So what is this yoga? (laughs) Sanjay Gandhi's yoga, just see. A rogue, devil, he is practicing yoga. His mother was practicing also yoga, the same.